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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » MusicFromOuterSpace.com designs by Ray Wilson
In case anyone didn't see this
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mome rath



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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:18 pm    Post subject:  In case anyone didn't see this
Subject description: (Completed soundlab on eBay)
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Seriously, $300 USD and the reserve was NOT met? I understand making a profit, but how did another $150-200 not meet the seller's minimum price? Laughing



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7411512504&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

edit: maybe I'm under estimating the cost of making it look so SEXEH!!!
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dnny



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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: In case anyone didn't see this
Subject description: (Completed soundlab on eBay)
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mome rath wrote:

edit: maybe I'm under estimating the cost of making it look so SEXEH!!!


Hey that´s the one tanaelyn made Shocked

CNC engraved panel, neat wiring.. it´s damn cute. i would keep that and not sell it... but thats just me.

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mome rath



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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: In case anyone didn't see this
Subject description: (Completed soundlab on eBay)
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dnny wrote:
mome rath wrote:

edit: maybe I'm under estimating the cost of making it look so SEXEH!!!


Hey that´s the one tanaelyn made Shocked

CNC engraved panel, neat wiring.. it´s damn cute. i would keep that and not sell it... but thats just me.


Well there's no denying it's SEXY. But a reserve above $300? I guess if the initial plan was to sell it off... I know making those panels can be quite costly (my x0xb0x panel was $40 and that was because the designer got a deal for 12 at $300) but this seems like too much to ask for this box.

Opinions are like something something, some people something something something!!!! And this is my opinion Cool

Pehr wrote:
I mean it's not the ultimate synthesizer, it's "just" a sound lab Very Happy


Tee hee hee
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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

uhhhhhh yeah.... what the??
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bigtex



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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

While I do think it is silly to charge money like that for it, so be it. It certainly does look like a nice construction job.

The one thing that I think is TOTALLY NOT COOL about that auction is the link to Ray Wilson's page *only* mentioned as a resource for sound samples. i.e. wasting Ray's bandwidth to make a profit. That's totally not okay. The seller could certainly have made their own sound samples on their own box and hosted them using their own bandwidth that they paid for.

Y'see, I think it would have been all fine if that link were put up right off the bat to say "here's where I bought this kit, you could buy one too and make this yourself, but if you don't want to go to all of that effort and you think my version looks nice, buy mine instead" .... then the buyer could look through Ray's page and make an informed decision about kit vs. complete unit. If nothing else, one should give credit where it is due, front and center.

I personally think that a secret reserve is kind of silly, too. I understand wanting to keep something and only being willing to sell it if the price is right, but why not just come out and say "I don't really want to sell this, so if the auction doesn't go over $350/$400/whatever, the reserve won't be met and I'll be keeping it."

Anyway... down off my soap box... it does look pretty nice... but stuff is really only worth what people are willing to pay...

...and I'm gonna build my own! Smile
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I dunno. I don´t see this as a problem at all. If he gets 300 USD for this one.. great.. Very Happy
He mentions ray so that is covered. He links to a page at Ray´s site, not individual files. That should be just fine too. And the labbie looks really nice.[/right][/list]

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Wild Zebra



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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would never sell mine, but if someone wanted one or I had another. Darn tooting I'd sell it. The ole' WIld Zebra's broke as a joke. It would be nice to see a little more Ray Prop's, though. Looks like he bought a board from Ray Cool HEck 3 hundies cheap. Diy "boutique" stompboxes with 10 or fewer parts sell for 3 hundred easy.
Dang nice soundlab. I was just jammin mine last night. Bought to do the 1v scaling, my buddies got a old yamaha with Cv and Gate out. Cool more fun. But this isn't about me Wink

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tanaelyn



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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, that was my Sound Lab listed on ebay, I just want y'all to know that I did ask Ray's permission first to sell it (and he gave it too) and I did purchase his pcb. I could have spent more time making sound samples, but the ones listed on Ray's site were so good that I thought I couldn't do better. Besides, it brings more people to his web site.

So, what do you think it is worth? I designed the panel and had to have half a dozen made and they weren't cheap. I used solid walnut for the case and finished it by hand. This sound lab includes several mods (fine tuners, intra-vco modulation, 1V/octave and the Sample & Hold). Needless to say, it took some time to make as I am sure all of you who have built the sound lab knows perfectly well. I am currently building several more which will include an 8 step sequencer.

BTW bigtex, one of the first things I say in the auction is: "It is my implementation of Ray Wilson's Sound Lab...".
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Wild Zebra



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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
So, what do you think it is worth?

We'll leave that to the bayers to decide Laughing

Being a Diyer. It seems you get a little biased. Cause I can say "I can make that for x amount cheaper than its worth", but theres alot of cats who don't wanna mess with building something, they got money, theres people who'll make it, done deal. I have a friend who's been into synths for as long as I can remember, and he's one of the smarter M'fr's I know.
He was the first guy I went to when I started making stuff. To show it off and make sure it was working properly. He has tons of MOTM, oakley, Wiard, you name it, modules. I says " you could make all that stuff for half the price" He's "I just don't have the patience I'd rather buy them"
Well hope you get the point.

Don't spend it all on booze tanaelyn Cool

Don't hate the seller, hate the demand Embarassed

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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome tanaelyn

Nice job building that SL. As long as Ray is cool with it I don't see why it should be any concern to anyone else that you are selling Sound Labs. I know there is is guy in the UK that is selling them too.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tanaelyn wrote:
So, what do you think it is worth?


How much is your time worth? Making a reasonable estimate of what it took to build this one wouldn´t be a reasonable estimate, but we all know that handbuilt stuff is and should be expensive. That is why the Behringer stuff is a blessing to those on a budget and yet companies like Behringer are killing the small utterly insane vendors who are making truly interesting stuff. Mass production is both a blessing and a curse. Frankly, I hope you get 1K for this one but I doubt it.

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bigtex



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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tanaelyn wrote:
BTW bigtex, one of the first things I say in the auction is: "It is my implementation of Ray Wilson's Sound Lab...".


ooops... sorry. I guess I didn't actually read it very carefully. Didn't mean to sound so mad or anything... I was just cranky because I couldn't sleep... Embarassed

It does look very nice, too. You did a great job on the construction. Did you do the silkscreening yourself or have the panel made elsewhere? Nice woodwork, too. Very Happy
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tanaelyn wrote:
So, what do you think it is worth?


Did you get the sync working?
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tanaelyn



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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
tanaelyn wrote:
So, what do you think it is worth?


Did you get the sync working?


The sync works as was designed. I can jack an external cv source to both inputs, flip the sync switch and both oscillators track perfectly. You just can't flip the sync switch and sweep one oscillator using it's coarse frequency knob and expect the other oscillator to follow that frequency. I guess I just misunderstood how it was supposed to work.

BTW, I have posted the sound lab in the For Sale forum (as it is still for sale). I have listed information about the panels and the sync there. Check it out and give me your feedback.
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tanaelyn wrote:
The sync works as was designed.


I checked the schematics and OMG you are right. Ray seems to have implemented 'weak sync' instead of the usual 'hard sync'. The sync pulses from oscillator 1 are summed into the comparator of oscillator 2 at a low level, which means that sync only occurs when oscillator 2 is close to its peak level. With hard sync, the pulse would be combined with oscillator 2's at the gate of the FET so that sync occurred on every cycle.
That explains the horrible sounding sync.
Out of interest, here is what hard sync sounds like when oscillator 2 pitch is swept.
Has anyone done a proper hard sync mod for the soundlab?

Edit: I may be wrong about the weak sync, the ASM-2 oscillators look similar to the soundlab. The CAT SRM works as I described though (and the sync sounds great)


syncSample.mp3
 Description:
hard sync (not from soundlab)

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 Filename:  syncSample.mp3
 Filesize:  78.22 KB
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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i don't want to be mean, or sarcastic or preachy-sounding, so i'll say what i've got to say in the most straight-forward no bullshit way i can.

to me, the idea of building the Soundlab -or any of the other DIY projects so generously shared by anyone but yourself- with the sole intention of selling it yourself, for a profit, is, i feel, totally conflicting with the good nature of the DIY community spirit-

now, you're one guy, selling one thing (and i guess soon more eh? did you say you had 12 panels made? (that's over $5000.00 if you get what youre asking) you could knock them out in a month or so, less material costs, i guess that's a pretty good wage!

what if it's 10 guys? or 20? i would hope that you or whoever would at least give Ray a cut of that change! but, to be completely realistic, you could simply design your own circuit board for it, and call it your own. it happened [and still does] enough with guitar FX and synthesizer designs in the not too distant past.

i think at least some of us are aware that greed has saturated almost everything human. that's why things are the way they are. i am really glad that the information that is free is still free. i would like it to stay that way, and i can tell you that, principally, this is the type of thing that makes it not that way.

the only thing i can say is you should put your energy into designing something of your own if you want to be in business, i mean, the way you advertise it, it's kind of weird, you are more or less treating it like a commercial product, when it's not at all.

Maybe you should market it for him? or invest and be partners?

that whole thing is what i don't get, but hey that's what gets some people out of bed in the morning.

anyways, i had to say what i felt about it. this deal is between you and Ray, and he is a super cool dude, but some people aren't so super cool about others profiteering on their brain-sweat. so, do what you will, [you will] but don't be greedy for the sake of all else untainted!

josh
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bigtex



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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm going to do a complete 180 on what I said in my first post on this thread. I didn't know all of the details, and as far as I'm concerned, I was wrong. If this sale had been worked out as OK ahead of time with Ray, then I can't see where any problem is.

If I were to design a circuit, print circuit boards, sell them, and publish the schematics and assembly instructions as free, public domain information, I wouldn't expect any more money out of it than the cost of the board I sold. Giving something away means no contracts, no licensing fees, no cut, no nothing. I think there are some expectations of acknowledgement, but that's it. Even that can't be required. Now there is a moral argument, and where you stand and where you draw the line is totally up to you.

On the SDIY mailing list (like six years ago, I think), I remember there having been some grumbling about Dieter Doepfer stealing some of Jurgen Habile's designs. That was never proven for sure, because (if I remember correctly) the circuit in question was a re-design of the Wasp filter. Technically, anybody could re-design the Wasp filter. Shortly after Jurgen published his circuit, Doepfer started selling their own version of the Wasp filter. There may have been others. Doepfer is held in fairly low regard by some members of the DIY community for this reason. The problem isn't not so much that they would use somebody's circuit in a product they sell, but that they would do it without asking or giving any kind of acknowledgement. The Doepfer issue may as well be heresay, thought, because I don't know all the facts.

Not giving credit can be lame, but in the present case, tanaelyn even mentioned Ray in the first line of the auction descriptiong (which I failed to notice earlier). I think that what tanaelyn is doing here is totally fine. People could also buy model car kits, assemble them, and sell them. Some people may happen to be very good at assembly and design, and others may not. There are plenty of people out there who are perfectly happy to pay a little (or a lot) extra to let somebody do the work for them, and do it well.

Look at circuit bending, for example. It's one of the easiest DIY audio electronic things out there. Anybody at all can put a potentiometer in a toy keyboard. It's easy. But there are plenty of folks out there who will pay 10x thrift store prices to buy just that. And, hey, that's fine. Everybody wins. Somebody, who doesn't care to find out just how easy that was, is now the happy owner of something they didn't have to make. Somebody else, who decided to make a buck, is also happy with some extra cash. Really, everybody wins.

It may be a little counter-DIY to sell stuff, but not everybody out there is going to be a DIY-er. I sure wish everybody out there who wants to play a synth or make some noise would just pick up a soldering iron and try their hand at stuff. I do. But it's not going to happen.

I do think that anybody that sells something should sell their own designs. However, as long as everybody involved in the design, manufacture, and sale can agree that it's all OK, then I'd say that it's all OK. It would certiainly be better to sell your own design. I would never build somebody else's kit and then sell it as a "product" and if I did, I certainly wouldn't expect so much money for it. If it only got bid up to $300, sell it for $300. For $450, somebody could could buy an Evolver, which can do way more than a Sound Lab.

With the really nice samples Ray recently put up on the page for the Sound Lab's guitar input, he could easily be selling the Sound Lab as a guitar pedal and making a killing. If Ray wanted to make the big bucks off of his designs, I think he'd be doing what tanaelyn did. Some people just aren't in it for the money.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think we should be careful when using the word greed with respect to someone who sells assembled versions of SLs.

If I were to get a SL, I would most certainly buy one. I don't have the time, patience or the eyesight to build my own. I've built enough stuff that, to quote BB King, "... the thrill is gone". Besides, I have enough unfinished DYI projects that would have higher priority should I start building agian. IMHO, it would be greedy of me to expect to pay only the cost of parts because the assembly should be done for the love of it.

Some people might not be able to afford doing DIY projects unless they sell some stuff to pay for parts, test equipment, and their time. It's not about getting rich (no one can get rich selling DIY projects), it's more about breaking even.

As for giving Ray a cut, that's between Ray and Tanaelyn. If they have some agreement or not it wouldn't be appropriate to announce it on an internet site.

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
no one can get rich selling DIY projects


Yep, these must take about 10 hours to assemble by hand. There is your $450 right there, not to mention paying retail for all the components.

I'm not saying this is worth $450 (it's not), just that in real terms, that is what it probably cost to make.

You may be able to make a profit if you invest in automated board stuffing, a wave solder machine, buy components in the 10,000's and hire some illegal immigrants to do the point to point wiring.

Then you could sell it for say $195 and still make a profit. It might actually sell at that price but you would need to move a lot of units to get your investment back.
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DJQUIRK



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yo, all the whiners need to chill. Ray is awesome and did alot of work designing an awesome synth, but then Tanaelyn took Ray's design and put his touch on it and not to mention probably spent many hours doing so. Just like Ray did with all the work Bob Moog and others did before him. If he can sell it for a mil, then sell it for a mil. This is America baby!!
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