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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Bouncing balls
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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:11 pm    Post subject: Bouncing balls Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Instead verbal ball bouncing i would like to use this old graphic and aswell musical fx ( see lemur and others ) with the nord modular.
Just...
A not so easy goal... especially when the solution should be as economical than possibel...

Its about gravity and elasticy...speed acceleration and changing directions...

one simple link..that gives an idea
http://www.delphiforfun.org/Programs/bouncing_ball.htm

or a practical applikation...

http://www.grotrian.de/spiel/d/info.html 


Anybody has done similar things on the nord before or has ideas?
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-48642.html#48642

There you go, that should do as a starting point. It's been a while since I did that one but if you have questions about something I could look it up.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, and gravity in a system like this means adding a number to the vertical speed.

Since in my demo speed is always a positive number you might be able to get away with increasing vertical friction for balls going up and making "friction" increase the speed for balls going down.

It's fun but memory is REALY tight.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ah yes ...that looks like it... i ve to check it later.
Thx
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mother misty



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

maybe this patch of g2ian can help aswell
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-12474.html#12474
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Doing a real physical model might be interesting. I am not sure where to start so I wrote some crude Jscript to test values etc.

You can edit the gravity and elasticity directly in the html file.


The Extension 'html' was deactivated by an board admin, therefore this Attachment is not displayed.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yep.. a real physical model would be the thing... but how to do with the G2?
I cant belive that i once was good in vector math...its all gone..
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here is my G2 translation of the program I posted.
Uses S&H for variables.

If you have a G2(X), I've mapped the Y values of 4 consecutive voices to the encoder LED rings.

The decaying elasticity variable turned out to be ideal for scaling the level of the sound.

I probably made lots of errors, physics is not my thang.


BounceG2.pch2
 Description:
4 bouncy things.

Download
 Filename:  BounceG2.pch2
 Filesize:  3.14 KB
 Downloaded:  719 Time(s)

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
yep.. a real physical model would be the thing... but how to do with the G2?
I cant belive that i once was good in vector math...its all gone..


Actually, mine is a physical model. A model of symplified highschool physics but still. Also; it uses vectors, sorta kinda. the ball is represented by two coordinates, then two independant inertias (x and Y) make it move.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i still havent my g2 connected because of installing a new desk again Sad
but as it seems booth models need to be combined to do something like in the groteian link i posted... When i understand cassens link wright its about pong... so moving and bouncing against walls in an enviroment without gravity...
While the one from Ian is just letting the ball bounce from a surface but under the law of gravity..
wright ?


bouncing between walls and the possebility to switch on and of gravity...
like in the Groteian toy i linked in the first message.
I hope i find some time to experiment with your patches later.

my goal is to get something playable out of the bouncing ball fx...
I like the semi random, natural structures you get with the Groteian toy.
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Actually, mine is a physical model.


Yes, sorry Kassen.
I was referring to my original G2 patch, that simulated the sound of a ball dropping on a hard surface then bouncing, but didn't model it. Your patch is great, just that it is a top down view with friction instead of gravity.

The Groteian toy is neat but I think it's appeal comes from watching the collisions. Can flash do midi out? Maybe I should learn.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I love your patch, Ian. A very nice wind chime type thing... Very Happy
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
i still havent my g2 connected because of installing a new desk again :-(


You can drop the midi send modules from Ian's patch and play it in the demo (with just one ball, not four)

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Another variation, uses midi send to play whatever is in slot B.
Have added a gate time modify section so that gates get shorter the faster the bounce. Adjust the notes in the scale, gravity and elasticity to taste.


BouncePrf.prf2
 Description:
more bouncing

Download
 Filename:  BouncePrf.prf2
 Filesize:  8.41 KB
 Downloaded:  777 Time(s)


Last edited by ian-s on Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ian, notate this and you'll be the next Terry Riley or something. Laughing
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3phase



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Another question just came in my mind...

when a weight hangs to a metal spring... and you move it up an let fall down...

is this the same modell as the one Ian just patched... with reduced gravity or so...

Or is it a different modell ?

I know i had that in scool just 25 years ago...but i cant remember a thing :-/
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X-Electric



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:

I know i had that in scool just 25 years ago...but i cant remember a thing :-/


I've had it in school 6 years ago and also can't remember a thing Very Happy I really can't tell if the balls elasticity could be compared in any way to Hook's law of spring force (especially something called "wspólczynnik sprezystosci" in polish - I don't know the exact translation - spring constant (?) - it's labelled as a "k" in Hook's law).

[edit] - I had to remove my polish letters - they were all "łżć" and stuff Wink
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3phase



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok.. at least a term like "Hook's law of spring force" indicates that there is a somewhat difference balistic behaviour...

I just try to understand Ians patch...havent had a look to Kassens yet...
but...within the next hour the speakers are online again and i can switch on the G2 again...

I allready can say that this leads in the wright direction for me...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

X-Electric wrote:
I've had it in school 6 years ago and also can't remember a thing Very Happy


At least you can remember when you were in school... Laughing

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
Kassen wrote:
Actually, mine is a physical model.


Yes, sorry Kassen.
I was referring to my original G2 patch, that simulated the sound of a ball dropping on a hard surface then bouncing, but didn't model it. Your patch is great, just that it is a top down view with friction instead of gravity.

The Groteian toy is neat but I think it's appeal comes from watching the collisions. Can flash do midi out? Maybe I should learn.


Oh, wait, you want to physically model the sound of the ball? That would be beyond me.

I'm not sure about Flash and MIDI, I think there is a version (director or shockwave or whatever) that can, maybe just from MID files. Since flash is meant to work with Ethernet it might be easier to use OSC as a go-between?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
Another question just came in my mind...

when a weight hangs to a metal spring... and you move it up an let fall down...

is this the same modell as the one Ian just patched... with reduced gravity or so...

Or is it a different modell ?

I know i had that in scool just 25 years ago...but i cant remember a thing :-/


There is actually a module in the G2 that does this; a state variable filter is also a perfectly good physical model of a mass and a spring. I had some good text on this around here from back when I was trying to use mass-spring models for interface mapping, you may want to do a google. It's not all that easy though. Basically the different outputs of the filter will represent things like the mass's location and it's velocity and so on.

Sadly all of my attempts to do this i the G2 were in the Engine that I gave back to Rob and it got re-initialised. pritty soon I concluded that this was a fun field but that the G2 isn't the most suitable system for this. Patches soon become unwieldy, it would all be much, much easier with something like classes or meta modules. I also found that this works MUCH better in systems that use floating point. In the G2 it tended to become unstable, might've been rounding errors or something, I'm fairly certain my math was sound (no pun intended). Back then I was prototyping in the G2, then quickly moving on to other systems, perhaps I shuld try again with ChucK now.

It's fun stuff though.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Oh, wait, you want to physically model the sound of the ball?


That is an interesting thought, modal vibrations on a spherical surface Shocked .

What I mean is the original G2 patch simply clocked a binary counter which was then used to shorten the distance between, and lower the level of successive boings.
The new patch uses parameters for gravity, acceleration and elasticity coefficient as described in the first link. It also adds friction(decay) to prevent the endless bouncing at the end. The original link used a bail out test but that looked a little unnatural.

This bouncing reminds me of the new Sony TV advertisement, with all the coloured balls bouncing down a street in San Francisco. Nice, but the slogan 'Colour, like no other' seems to have been stolen from the creators of the NTSC system.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:

That is an interesting thought, modal vibrations on a spherical surface Shocked .


Great idea! You go do that and I'll have a little nap and when I wake up I'll see how far along you are.
:¬p

If you didn't hear it already; check Beucephalus(SP? bouncing ball by Aphex twin.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Beucephalus(SP? bouncing ball by Aphex twin.


"Bucephalus Bouncing Ball" to be clear... anyway, I thought the whole topic was about something different than a sound of gummy ball striking a concrete floor... (although Aphex Twin's ball was a bit different, and the concrete was something else hehe Wink don't try to imitiate this guy - most of the time he's composing after a HUGE help of mushrooms and other great chemical specimens you know...) I'd never dare to copy anything he does...
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
If you didn't hear it already; check Beucephalus(SP? bouncing ball by Aphex twin.


I found a 30sec preview, sounds great but the bouncing bit must come later.

Anyway, in case someone without a G2 is curious, here is a sample of the slightly modified G2 patch playing the Microsoft GM synth.


BounceGM.mp3
 Description:
g2 bouncer patch playing GM piano

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 Filename:  BounceGM.mp3
 Filesize:  289.5 KB
 Downloaded:  512 Time(s)

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