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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » MusicFromOuterSpace.com designs by Ray Wilson
WSG Thank you!
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Tronato



Joined: Sep 21, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:07 pm    Post subject:  WSG Thank you! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Anybody out there?
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm sorry to read you got disappointed that much. At the same time though it's not so easy to do remote support on DIY projects and probably no answers coming in means that people do not have a clue as to what could be the problem, not even clues enough for asking proper questions. You may believe different by now, but really people are pretty helpful towards each other here, especially in the DIY section.
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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Tronato



Joined: Sep 21, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: WSG Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!
Do you mean nobody can tell me at least if when you turn on the WSG if it is silent?
Thanks!
TRO
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What version of the WSG have you built?
Can you take any photos of it?
First two things on the checklist are battery polarity and IC orientation.

BTW sorry I didn't see your other post. I've had my head stuck in the Klee sequencer for a long time now. I'm on the case now though, see if we can't get some weird sounds happening for you.

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RF



Joined: Mar 23, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi again Tronato -
The one I made generated noise every time I turned it on - that is, there was always something coming out of it. Then again, I wasn't much of a stickler for using the specified parts - I just used what I had on hand - so some pots, and caps...and resistors...were in the ballpark but not exactly like the schematic. Confused
I didn't have any problems with hum and such as you mentioned in your other post - either with battery operated amp or otherwise.
I eventually built a small amp into mine with an LM386.

good luck - I really hope someone can be more help for you.
bruce
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Tronato



Joined: Sep 21, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks RF for your response...
I'll wait a few days to see if anybody comes up with some troubleshooting procedure or whatever. Otherwise I'll start desoldering the whole thing and analyze everything with a microscope!
Thanks again!
TRO
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello again!
Uncle:
It is the new 08/07 version sold by MFOS.
Thanks!

TRO
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Okay, sorry, I didn't realise it was the new one. Anyway, it still doesn't have a volume control of any kind, so it will always be putting out something.
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!

Ok, we now know for a fact it always pumps out something, but it can't be this high volume low pitched frequency that clicks every second or so. I can hear how the controls affect the sound in the background but I'm sure it is not meant to output this kind of constant noise.
Since this is a relatively new version of WSG has anybody else built one? Has the wiring on the MFOS Panel Wiring Page (Rear view of Pots, switches. etc) document been double checked?
I have built Ray's signal tracer. If someone can guide me as to how to use it I would be very grateful.
I would hate to start desoldering the whole thing!
Thanks!

TRO
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If the low pitched frequency sits on top of other tones which you can control, it sounds like it is another oscillator which doesn't have the controls connected properly. Check that you have all the controls connected properly, and then go through each one seeing if you can change the low pitched tone with one of them. If not, are there any controls which seemingly do nothing? Double check these, and the circuitry close to them.
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello again!
All controls modify the sound one way or the other... it's this steady low frequency sound which is a nuisance! This noise is not present on the samples available on Ray's WSG homepage on MFOS. How can I record a sample I can post so you all can hear it?
How do I troubleshoot this circuit? Help!
Thanks!
TRO
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RF



Joined: Mar 23, 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Tronato -
Are you running this by battery power - or perhaps by using a "Wall-Wart" or other power supply?

You are describing low frequency (perhaps 60 cycle Evil or Very Mad ) hum....
On the other hand - if you are using battery power, just ignore this post.

Don't get too discouraged - we'll eventually nail down the problem.

bruce
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!
Thanks for your answer.
No it's not 60 Hz since I am in a battery powered environment. However when I power the amp with an AC/DC power supply, the sound changes when I touch the switches despite everything is apparently correctly grounded...
TRO
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
No it's not 60 Hz since I am in a battery powered environment.


Battery powered devices are capable of picking up mains hum as well.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello:
That is true but I've tested it in different places so I doubt that is the problem...
Go for example to the WSG samples on Ray's MFOS website... there is a sample called Warning Klaxon... it is a clean intermittent tone (processed later in the sample).
I can't obtain the silence between tones because of the presence of this annoying noise, and this probably applies to the rest of the samplers. This circuit is driving me crazy... I am frustrated because in part I've dedicated so much time to it... darn!
Is it possible to ask Ray about this (although I know he's currently on vacation)?
Thanks anyway!

TRO
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Without being able to see your wiring, or hear the sound it's putting out, the only advice I can give regarding troubleshooting is to check, check, and check again. I know it can be frustrating, but believe me, finding a single wiring fault in a mass of connections is harder than it seems. I've sometimes had to put a circuit aside for a week just so I could see it properly.
There's a classic perception test where you read a paragraph and count the number of "f"s in it, and most people get it wrong, because our brains ignore all the "of"s. Checking wiring is alot like that, and it takes a lot of practice to get really good at it.
Now you may have already checked it a dozen times, and it may actually be perfect, all I'm saying is that 9 out of 10 times when I've been in that situation, it has still turned out to be a wiring fault.
Oh, and try not to be too frustrated when you do the checking. It's best if you "let it go" and get in a relaxed, unhurried head space. If and when you do find a fault, it will leave you feeling very, very satisfied with yourself, I promise.

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Tronato



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello Uncle:
I understand your point perfectly. In order to be able to photpgraph the PCB I'll have to desoldre all the 28 or so cables that come from the front panel... a pain but I'll do it tomorrow. A pain because it is partially working apart from the Low Frequency Tone...
Any idea what the Integrated circuit should output at it's pins without the controls (pots and switches) connected to it?
Thanks again!

TRO
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No, don't desolder your cables to the front panel! That's more than likely where an error might be. The PCB is probably alright. And no-one will have figures about what you might measure with the controls disconnected because no-one has one in that state. I really meant a photo that shows how you've wired your controls.
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello again!
If nobody has a WSG without the front panel connected then they have it with the front panel connected.
Could somebody indicate what to expect at the IC pins of a completed WSG?
On the other hand, if I don't desolder the front panel. how can I safely troubleshoot the circuit board?
I'm at a standstill!
Thanks!

TRO
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello again!
I've been wondering... and wondering... and wondering... since everything is apparently working, could it be one of the transistors that is causing the low frequency noise?
Thanks!

TRO
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RF



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Tronato -
You REALLY need to record and upload a sample of your WSG so we can hear the problem. We feel your pain (!), but there is not much we can do to help without enough information.
If you used Ray's circuit board - part of the problem might be that there are not that many people who have made that yet - iy just came out in august, I think...That might explain why you are not getting any answers.

I breadboarded the basic version of the wsg tonight (just three 40106 oscillators and no filter) & here is what I heard using a simple signal tracer like the one Ray has on his site (I think you said you had made one).

Pin 1, 2, 4 and 6 of the 40106 you will hear various tones. Each pin of the Q1 "weird frequency" transistor you will hear a tone.

Follow the path of the audio through your WSG circuit with the signal tracer until you start hearing the noise you are concerned about - and let us know where it starts - what component is it near or what point in the circuit.

Good luck!

Bruce
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello RF!
Your answer has been the winner so far. Thanks for going through the trouble of breadbording the circuit... I'll check your indications tomorrow morning...
How were the controls (pots and switches)?
How do I record and upload a sample of my WSG if my results don't match yours?
Sorry to be so ignorant!
Seems I'm a guinea pig on this one...my luck!

TRO

Last edited by Tronato on Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello again...
What about the volume of those tones?
TRO
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Pehr



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
Hello again...
What about the volume of those tones?
TRO


My guess is that they are really loud! Very Happy

See http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/analogsynth/oddsandends.html#SIMPLEOSCILLATOR for more info about the inverter-oscillator.

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Tronato



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello:
The unwanted low frequency is generated or is present on pin 6 of the 741 op amp... but that is evident because it's the output...
Darn!

TRO
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