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self evolving sounds/animator circuits?????
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:15 pm    Post subject: self evolving sounds/animator circuits????? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am looking for a module (or modules) that will create self-evolving sounds...these sorts of sounds are easy to do with plugins but hard to do with typical vcos and filters....i have heard the wooglebug does this...any other ideas?

i am working on building the ez chaos circuit and i hope it will make some self-evolving sounds...maybe not

really looking for things that you hit one note and it keeps going and going and going...or cv sources that keep taking the voltages in different directions.


so far i have built some vcos and filters, etc..they are good building blocks, but i am far from that sound i am searching for.


thanks all

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You know, the lowly Sample and Hold has a lot of potential. I even posted in another forum this weekend about it.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

something to keep the fantasy going : http://www.cim.mcgill.ca/~clark/nordmodularbook/nm_algorithmic.html Very Happy
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: self evolving sounds/animator circuits????? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
I am looking for a module (or modules) that will create self-evolving sounds...


VCLFO, two or three modulating the others frequency in a circular connection can create some interesting evolving CV patterns.

The output of each provides a different but related cv.
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Tim Servo



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:22 pm    Post subject: self evolving sounds/animator circuits????? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think the gist of this is - there isn't really a single "magic" module that will automatically give you animated or self-evolving sounds. What I like to do is set up two or three "strings" of modules that can influence each other. Maybe patch a few things together and then have the output of that modulate something else. Feeding signals back into earlier parts of the chain can be interesting too.

For a really simple example, I've had a lot of fun with this:
LFO ---> VCLFO ---> VCO ---> VCF, etc.

An example of might be:
VCO2 ---> VCLFO1 ---> VCO1 ---> VCF, etc.

VCO1 ---> VCLFO2 ---> VCO2 ---> VCF, etc.

Notice how the two "strings" of modules are cross-connected and will modulate each other. Of course, having voltage control over as many parameters as possible is vital for self-evolving patches. Having several VCAs and LFOs helps too. In the second example above, it might be neat to have another LFO control a VCA that sets the amount of modulation from VCO2 back to VCLFO1. Anyway, there's no set formula, except to apply your imagination and experiment.

HOWEVER, if you're simply looking for chaotic or semi-predictable or even unpredictable modulation sources, then the Wogglebug is a good start, as are some of Ian Fritz's chaos circuits, or even as mentioned before, the lowly S/H.

Tim (gotta think of a better term than "strings") Servo
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: self evolving sounds/animator circuits????? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
I am looking for a module (or modules) that will create self-evolving sounds...these sorts of sounds are easy to do with plugins but hard to do with typical vcos and filters....i have heard the wooglebug does this...any other ideas?


Hey Loss, the Woggle doesn't do evolving sounds. in fact its a bit of a one trick pony in my opinion (I've got a real Wiard series 300 version). It's also a beast to tame- making it useless for trying to replicate the same patch twice (but then it only really produces one sound- so that's a contradiction already Shocked Laughing ).

Have you checked out the Nord Modular? That's really fab for producing evolving sounds. Its also a lot cheaper than analogue.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: self evolving sounds/animator circuits????? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Have you checked out the Nord Modular?


the G2 demo IMO is a very nice thing to get into noodling.

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We're fairly close on the same goals Loss, with my Noise / Experimental and Ambiet composing desires.

I still don't have enough of a machine built yet to be comfortable with it playing itself, but I'm getting closer.

My general module thought line includes: LFOs, VCLFOs, Clock Dividers, Logic , S&H's and EGs as controllers. Outside of that, the usual sound generators and processors.

As mentioned above - both VCLFOs (VCOs at low speeds) and S&Hs are very useful and powerful tools in this regard. Smile
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks all

as far as virtual goes i have so many plugins,...and REAKTOR.....but i am at a point where i want to get back to analog....these are all great ideas

maybe i should build another 8 step sequencer and get that going with this ideas....

i wish they had had one more klee pcb....


thanks people!!!!

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mandrigora



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don't forget effects: delay and feedback a la Frippertronics.
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numbernone



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lots of SLOW non synched modulation and very gentle CV attenuation, has always done the trick for me.

LOTS of VCAs
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbernone wrote:
Lots of SLOW non synched modulation and very gentle CV attenuation, has always done the trick for me.

LOTS of VCAs


THIS is KEY! LOTS of VCAs! They're a major tool in controlling the levels of EVERYthing - especially in such a conflagration. Wink

Another thought / memory that I'd had after I'd previously posted - the Klee itself will become a MAJOR controller tool in this very aspect as opposed to a note generator. Smile

Hour later edit:

For very good and low cost VCAs, go with Ken Stone's. They've become my 'all around VCA' types that I use. My final outputs for recording go through my Charlie Lamm SSM2164 VCAs.
My last build of the Ken Stone ones - I matched the transistors to 3 decimal points to get rid of the feed through. They sound fine so me, as far as my amateur knowledge was able to judge. Smile

(Side note: No I don't work for Ken Stone - just like his stuff, lots'n'lots. Very Happy )

Last edited by Rykhaard on Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbernone wrote:
LOTS of VCAs

Yes, indeed. My "Dynamix" module has been getting a good workout lately. This is a hex VCA module with FET-based attenuators. Mostly useful for slow AM. It also has a fair bit of gentle distortion, which helps increase the interest in slow moving multivoice drones.

Very Happy

Ian
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So i think what everyone was is saying is that i need the basic stuff in well thought out configurations to get the evolving stuff...i suppose when all i have is a few modules (finished) its easy to think that making something non standard like a wogglebug would be instant weirdness (the kind i love) but i need to be thinking about the connections BETWEEN things, not just relying on one crazy module.

good point.

but i would love to know more about how everyone is using multiple vcas to acheive weirdness...

also, things like quanitizers, slews, dividers, these are things i have never played with...do they add up to good random results? theres nothing like getting sounds you couldnt have dreamed of when you hit a key


thanks all


(starting to run out of panel space Smile

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm coming from what I like to call 'Organized Anarchy' Razz Very Happy

Earlier were mentioned Voltage Controlled LFOs. Driving 1 LFO's speed from another, is going to give you something of a lesser predictive occurrence. SLIGHTLY lesser. Add another one controlling the 2nd one, or put 3 in a row.

At some point, you can send the output to a comparator with a controllable trigger level, to trigger something else only at that time.

VCAs? You could put VCAs in at various points here, to have the LFOs at various points control how much of WHAT is going through them. When you're getting down to low frequencies (sub 1hz), you're coming to a lesser often triggering possibility of things. Slowly occurring.

Remember earlier I mentioned the comparator? That could be set to Gate an ADSR that's controlling something else. Only occurs when that Comparator flips.

Another thought that I had tonight at work (2 innovations that I came up with tonight, though I'll remain quiet on the 2nd one for now - till I see if it works on a breadboard) - was to setup a string divider (like an LM3914 for driving LED bar graphs). Take each of those outputs into it's own Attack Decay EG. Each of the EGs would have it's own output, which could then be summed and / or differenced from each other in various ways. All of this would be set off by whatever waveform is input to the thing.

Off on a related tangent: doesn't is suck, when you come up with way more ideas for things, than you have time to actually experiment with / build them? Sad
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rykhaard wrote:
I'm coming from what I like to call 'Organized Anarchy' Razz Very Happy



But anarchy IS organised! It is only conservatives and liberals (same thing IME) who would tell you otherwise Evil or Very Mad

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loss1234



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

that explains alot-!!!!!-except, i still dont get what a comparator does... i know it compares voltages but how can this be applied?

i am about to build the cgs utility lfo,,,,is this a good vclfo? is there a good vclfo i could build a couple of on a perfboard or pcb?


thanks

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numbernone



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ryk is right about the comparator, I like to input 2 LFOs nice and slow and the have it fire an EG for the once in while event.

The UTILITY LFO is a nice one in my book, simple build with lots of output. I would suggest definitely building it with range switching for the time, as well as the JOIN and SWAP for the VARI output, a good bit of oddness can be found there. I made the slow cycle with 10uf electro caps made non polar, 5uf makes for real slow cycles. I just ordered a ton more of Ken's stuff, and cant wait to get it going.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I hadn't looked at the CGS Utility LFO until just now - that looks like a nice project. Ditto the VCA's and LFO's - add some Mixers, too.

I recently built a Triple LFO based on Ray Wilson's Simple Saw and Ramp LFO's specifically for generating gates or triggers in long, complex but eventually repeating patterns. I've used it lots with a dual Bugbrand pattern generator lately.

Autonomous synth patches fascinate me - but my efforts often come up short of being musical in nature (my brain needs some 'structure' I can anchor to...) or they become a bit trite after a few minutes.

Very occasionally - I get an autonomous patch that transfixes me...
I have no idea if anyone else would appreciate it, but I can happily build for hours with the synth bubbling away by itself.

Actually - I'd love to hear what other people are doing with 'noodles' from their hardware analog synths. There really are not a whole lot of recordings of "hands off, no overdub noodles" that I have heard.

I'd love for you all to share some noodles!

Good thread Smile

bruce

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss: Here's a comparator circuit (within the red square) in a cgs module, http://electro-music.com/forum/phpbb-files/comp_404.gif

EDIT: The output of the comparator is low as long as the voltage input is lower than the reference voltage, set by the input voltage at the inverting-input, and high when above. Cool

Else, I think lot's of LFO's controlling lots of filters and stuff would be really good for self evolving patches. You will never get t he same sound twice! Shocked So record everything! Very Happy

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loss1234



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

is the simple lfo from ray a vc lfo? i didnt see any INPUTS....or do you only need some of the lfos to have inputs?

this IS a great thread...troubleshooting my sn voice right now (magic smoke alert) but as soon as i get that worked out, i am going to start building some lfos!!!

thanks

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RF



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The RW simple LFO is just that - it's not voltage controlled - hence, no need for inputs.

The PC Board ray sells for his LFO does have CV inputs. I have a couple of those and use them often.

It's real easy to perfboard his simple LFO... I think you mentioned that in an earlier posting...

Good luck on the troubleshooting...soon as I finish my Klee Exclamation , I've got that SN voice and the Supercontroller lined up to do.

bruce
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For this type of work, I reckon Tom Wiltshires PIC based VCLFO would be superb, especially as it has sample and hold capabilities.

http://www.tomwiltshire.co.uk/sdiy/lfo.html

Until recently I was lacking a few of the facilities to make this: not now, so I'll definitely be trying it. It has so few parts that I reckon it would be easy to make up a reasonable bank for evolving sounds etc.

If you want to go seriously hardcore, these people have all the tools, but beware, they're a bit of a steep learning curve,(well more of a step function).

http://algoart.com/

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Peake



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:13 am    Post subject: Re: self evolving sounds/animator circuits????? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Hey Loss, the Woggle doesn't do evolving sounds. in fact its a bit of a one trick pony in my opinion (I've got a real Wiard series 300 version). It's also a beast to tame- making it useless for trying to replicate the same patch twice (but then it only really produces one sound- so that's a contradiction already Shocked Laughing ).


If the Woggle slow/smooth CV output is the same as the Buchla 265/266 smooth output, this is THE module for truly organic, CV-able unpredictability. It's far more musical than simply filtering noise etc. Add a couple of S/Hs and maybe some analog logic and feed them back to themselves and you have wonderful oceanic modulation source.

I've got some of the boards on order and hope that they fill the bill. If so, they are one of the single most important modules in a synthesizer, in my opinion. I may not even stuff the audio sections; I just want THAT CV. Anything you modulate with it becomes musical. Panning, filtration, amplitude, flangers, etc.

And yes, you'll need a lot of VCAs. Never underestimate the usefulness of multiple VCAs, especially ones that can process control voltages.

Edit: A Wiard JAG module would also be nice, as you can take variations of a single CV and control different things with several different offsets, if I've read the module descriptions correctly.

An analog sequencer such as the Milton or Buchla 246 have analog addressing, which means that if the sequencer clock is not running, a CV at this input will result in the proportional selection of various stages to the CV amount. 0V= stage 1, 5V= stage 12, etc. A sample and hold output to this input is very fun, especially if the clock input is random. You get the feel of where the musical sweet spots are when you use it for a while.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I second the Jag/Joystick concept for some interesting variation on the evolving aspect.
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