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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Nord Lead and Nord Wave synths
NL2X - Mono/Legato: Envelope Behaviour
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nuclearhedgehog



Joined: Jun 12, 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:11 am    Post subject: NL2X - Mono/Legato: Envelope Behaviour
Subject description: Filter and Amp envelopes have a bug in Mono mode!
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Hi there folks,

I am a happy owner of a nord lead 2x, it is definitely the best synth ever made (well, at least for me), I never get tired of creating aero-cosmic sounds using her. It's amazing.

But recently, I figured out some thing I cannot understand. As the Nord manual says, the Mono and Legato modes differ in the following way: if I play legato in Mono mode, the envelopes would retrig and if I play legato in Legato mode, they won't.

However, when I set a long Attack, say, in the Filter envelope, the filter will not do this attack again if I "press a new key without releasing the previous one". The same goes with the Amp envelope. The only envelope that seems to have a reaction is the Mod one.

Does anyone has any idea on that? Is it a bug, or is it a feature I don't understand?

Last edited by nuclearhedgehog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome nuclearhedgehog

That's Legato Smile No triggers unless you release all keys and press one again! And the ModEnv (set it to Osc2 using a high amout, so you can notice the Pitch jump) doesn't react either, unless... youy released all keys first.

Wout
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I know what you mean... Embarassed

Hereby I send a little mp3 demonstrating Mono (first one hit) and Legato.
I play a smal chord while lifting a finger now and then. High Note Priority is clearly audible: in practise the keyboard skips the in between notes.

Anyway, in Mono every move triggers the Envelopes again...

Wout


MonoLegatoHighestNotePriority.mp3
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nuclearhedgehog



Joined: Jun 12, 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Wout for your response. I really badly explained what I discovered, and it's nice that you got me right.

However, the example you provided does not really cover my problem. Here's my example. I used the Program number 4.10 (in order to ensure we both are using the same Program, because Programs starting with bank 4 are not overwriteable). I set the Filter Attack at about 75% (or, about 3 o'clock, if you wish). This was the only change I made. Then, I played a really simple sequence C1 - G1 - C2 in three different modes - Legato, Mono, and Poly.

In all those 3 modes I played it legato, whatever that means... you say you are a music teacher, so you should understand me Razz

I would expect that Poly and Mono modes won't differ in sound, for I played one note at a time. However, it was not the case, as you can hear - just the contrary: Poly and Mono sound in a different way, while Mono and Legato are undistinguishable in my example!

I would highly appreciate if you make such an experiment, and, if you get a different result, could you please provide it. I remind that I use a Nord Lead 2X, as red as a fire engine, bought this winter, mint condition...

What I suspect for now, is that the NL2X does not correctly provide a LONG attack in Mono mode.


NuclearHedgehog_nl2x_410_Legato_vs_Mono_vs_Poly.mp3
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Nord Lead 2X: program 4.10 + Filter Attack 75% - C-G-C - Legato mode, Mono mode, Poly mode

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nuclearhedgehog wrote:
... What I suspect for now, is that the NL2X does not correctly provide a LONG attack in Mono mode.
That's the truth, for sure Smile There is a lot wrong with the Mono mode, but that's a different story, in fact, it has also some surprisingly useful bugs Smile

You are using the Program 'Wet Gilde', in the NL2X called 4.10, in the archives it's known as 0310.

The first audio fragment is about Legato. The first sound is played in Mono mode, the second one in Poly mode. Legato means you release the key after the new key is played. In the Mono mode one can't hear this, in Poly mode it's as clear as hell...

In contrast with your examples I recorded audio fragment two without releasing the keys, so I play it as Legato as possible. In the Poly mode the harmonic build up is clear;
in Mono mode the separated triggers are also very easy to hear - there is a difference in sound, because in Unison the Mono mode uses four Voices to every key;
in Legato mode the trigger of the Envelopes is only at the start and all the other keys won't trigger. (note I'm holding all played keys!)

Nothing wrong with this. It's just normal behavior and nobody never noticed a thing. Then you, and so did I, tweaked the Filter Envelope Attack to a value of (about) 110. I will publish about these values in the near future.

The problem about this setting is the trigger moment gives no sound, so it isn't that easy to detect what is going on. To make it more audible I set the Decay, Sustain and Release all to 'zero'. This means the Filter will cut off the sound when the attack stops. What happens? The 'shut down' happens when the first played key's attack time is over. Take a listen to the chord played down while all the keys are hold: the last note has to sound much longer...
When played in Poly mode one can clearly hear the Envelopes finishes all the Attack times (plop!)

It is a bug, but I think it isn't the bug you mean Shocked

For those NL users also the SysEx file 'Wet Glide' is attached here.

Anyway, this all fits perfectly in the my findings about the NordLead and its musical use.

Wout


01-ExamplePlayingMode-Poly-Mono-Legato-(Difference-Portato-Legato).mp3
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02-ExamplePlayingMode-Poly-Mono-Legato-(all_played_Legato).mp3
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03-ExamplePlayingMode-Poly-Mono-Legato-(FilterAttack-Time)-02.mp3
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Last edited by Wout Blommers on Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:02 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: NL2X - Mono/Legato: Envelope Behaviour Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nuclearhedgehog wrote:
... I never get tired of creating aero-cosmic sounds using her. ...
I'm sure you are only able to detect above bug when playing aero-cosmic sounds, aren't you Wink

I am interested to hear some of those sounds!

Also what could be of importance about the bug: there are some programs which have a funny bug in Mono mode, while others doesn't, so there could be a slight difference in the format or something which makes troubles.

Wout
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

About the Mono-Bug...
In the first audio example it's clearly to be heard the triggering of the Filter Envelope is possible after the preceding Attack has stopped; probably after the complete Envelope cycle is completed.

Then, of course, the question: is there any musical use?

In the second example a lot of things are happening:

it starts with the 'Wet Glide' program, set in a long Filter Attack, Poly mode, Osc2 in 'Non Tracking' and with an active Arpeggiator;
then with the key hold there is a switch to Mono mode: the sound get more Voices;
after that the Arpeggiator is stopped and
Osc2 is tuned to the fifth of the hold key (note)
After this all the song starts...

It results in kind of bourdon sound, in which three sounds (the first key, the Osc2 note, which is for every key the same, and an extra note) can be heard simultaneously, a bit strange in Mono mode Smile These three notes react the same to the trigger, other then in the Poly mode, where each note reacts to individual to their own trigger...

Wout


04-ExamplePlayingMode-Poly-Mono-Legato-(Mono).mp3
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05-ExamplePlayingMode-Poly-Mono-Legato-(Mono_in_DuoPhone).mp3
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nuclearhedgehog



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh well. I think we almost simultaneously figured out almost the same thing Smile

So, what "my" bug is? In Mono mode, NL2X won't start a new Attack unless the Attack of the first pressed key has finished. When it is finished... then NL2X would just start a new Attack! And that is the reason why just a few people figured this out.

In Legato mode, the same happens - NL2X won't start a new Attack when you hit another key, but, in comparison with the Mono mode, the new Attack WON'T be started unless you release all the keys and press another one.

Here's another bunch of examples...

1. First, I set an experiment almost as you did - Attack ~50%, Decay 0%, Sustain 0%, Release 0% (I still prefer to measure them in percent, rather than in the scale internal to the NL2x). Note that in this case the Attack is shorter. I play a note to demonstrate the sound. Then, I try to "manage" to play an A-moll chord consequently... and it perfectly "fits" in this short Attack (and this is the bug), though it should have started a new Attack for each of the three notes.

2. Second experiment. I set the Attack to ~75% again and repeatedly play a sequence. You hear that a new Attack is NOT started for each note (and THIS IS THE BUG!), but it IS started when the previous Attack has finished (and this is the reason why the Mono mode is distinguishable from the Legato mode!).

3. Third one. Let's switch to Legato and do the same thing. The instrument goes silent after the Attack has finished, and, well, that's correct.

4. And the last experiment for today. Let's do the same for the Amp envelope! To do this, I switch the Filter Type to All-Pass (by the way, do you know that the NL2X has an all-pass filter?) and set the envelope almost as in the previous case - A 65%, D 0%, S 0%, R 0% (only the Attack is a bit shorter, because the Amp seems to have different envelope times) and play my sequence. The envelope behaviour is just like that of the Filter envelope.

I never knew some programs behave differently. Could you please provide some examples?

About my own sounds, I think I'll post some, but it's night already, me wants to sleeeeeep, maybe next time...


1_Mono_Filter_Attack50%.mp3
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4_Mono_Amp_Attack65%.mp3
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, there is a lot wrong with the Mono mode, although not in normal use, which is playing a screaming lead or a boinking bass line, but the question stays: is there any musical use for these bugs?

Lets face it, after more then a decade after the release of the synth two guys, one in Riga and one in The Hague found a bug in the NordLead Smile Will Clavia run and repair it? Although, we have them surrounded...
So lets look at any musical advantage of this strange behavior.

After finding the long Filter Attack bug and the possibility to play duo phone in Modo mode (holding a key when switching from Poly mode to Mono mode - lets call it the Special mode?) here is another one in Special mode: the double Trigger!

After going in Special mode and playing Legato the Trigger fire off twice, when the key is pressed and when de key is released.

In the example I played a pink-thumb octave, first in Poly, then in Legato, then in Mono and finishing in Special. All were played Legato, which means the first key will be released after the second is pressed.

Wout

PS I know about the 'Secret Filter' [Shift+Filter type], although I think it is a Notch+HP Filter, the opposite of the Notch+LP Filter, about what we can discuss, of course Wink


06_Double_Trigger_Mono.mp3
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Last edited by Wout Blommers on Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, maybe here is something of musical use?
Just a try out and nice to investigate while playing...

Ingredients: Special mode, sustained bass note, Arp-Echo, distortion, Osc2 no KBT, Semi tone set to the first fifth, RingModulator and a nice OscMix.
There is a SysEx attached.

Wout


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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just another amazing sound played using the Mono mode... True, it's played in Mono mode!

Of course Special mode, LFO1 provides an over all rhythm, the Arpeggiator jumps around (BTW this is the reason I use the Shift+LFO1-wave form rather then % to be able to set both LFO's to the same Rate) and the melody is the extra note/voice in that Special mode. Note this melody doesn't react to the Arpeggiator or maybe it is the Arpeggiator Smile

Also the SysEx to try yourself.

Wout


08-Sustained-Note_In_Mono_Arp04-2ndVersion.mp3
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Okay...
The last one, for a while Wink

Wout


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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I looked around a bit, today, but... about 90% of all synths have envelopes which acts this way! In Mono mode and in hold function triggering is only possible after the Attack time is over, unless there is a 'retrigger' knob. The only bug is IMHO there is no such a knob...

Wout
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nuclearhedgehog



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello. Just got my ears on your demos. Sound interesting, especially with that Arp, I should check out this feature. I have some musical ideas on this mono mode, too, but right now I am on holidays without my Lead Crying or Very sad and will be back a couple of days later.

You say you tested the "mono" mode on different synths. What synths did you play? Just being curious... Wink

Anyway, even if it is a "tradition" to treat the Mono mode in that way, why not write it in the user guides. What a humble uneducated user like me expects from a product he has bought, it is what the manufacturers write about this product, not what they "keep in mind"...
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