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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Nord Lead and Nord Wave synths
Nord Lead 2X constantly sending random MIDI Expression data
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ilmolto



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:31 am    Post subject: Nord Lead 2X constantly sending random MIDI Expression data Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

I've had my Nord Lead 2X for quite some time. I love it. I have this annoying problem though. The Nord Lead keeps on sending, and therefore acting like it's receiving, MIDI CC 11 (Expression) data for no reason. I don't even have an expression pedal connected, so I don't know why this is happening. It just spits out values 36 and 37, randomly. I know this because I recorded the Nord Lead on a MIDI track in Cubase and this is what it picked up. It wouldn't really bother me if it didn't affect the actual sound of the Nord, but it does. The Expression signal duplicates the Mod Wheel. So every time an Expression value is received, what ever is assigned to the Mod Wheel will also be changed. This is annoying because I like to use the Mod Wheel to control the Filter Cutoff Frequency. You can see how frustrating it can be.

Would anybody know why this is happening? I took it to a repair center and the guy thought it might be due to the Expression Pedal input being dirty. So he cleaned it, but it hasn't solved the problem. Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Regards,

Daniel

Last edited by ilmolto on Tue May 05, 2009 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome ilmolto

Sounds like a bad pot somewhere. You are sure it is CC 11? Mostly it is CC 7 (gain). This is important, because CC 11 isn't assigned to a physical knob other then the Pedal, isn't it? So you can't replace the potmeter...

When pressing [Shift+LFO1-wave form] will show the value of the last used knob. In a instable situation it will show the jumping of the values all the time.
If so, set all parameters to 0 accept one, which is best to set to 60 or something near. I should start with the Gain (The power supply will heat up this one first...) and if there is no jumping at 60-61, try another parameter. If you located the parameter you'll know which pot has to be replaced.

If cleaning out the jack Input connector would help, I have my doubts...

Wout
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ilmolto



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Wout,

Thanks for your reply. You've already brought something to my attention that I did not know before; holding shift and pressing LFO 1 Waveform will show you the MIDI value of the pot you are tweaking. Thank you so much for this!

I am 100% sure that it's CC 11 that is randomly being changed to 36 and 37. It seems that the Mod Wheel is triggering this. Every time I move the Mod Wheel to the maximum value, CC 11 at value 37 will be sent. Then, when I bring the Mod Wheel back to minimum, CC 11 at value 36 will be sent. I've had the Mod Wheel replaced due to this problem, but once again did not fix it.

I don't quite understand your instructions about putting every pot to 0 except one. Would you be able to explain a little more?

Thanks again,

Daniel
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Oli



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

Not sure if this is going to be helpful or not, but it sounds like maybe the expression pedal input is being scanned by an ADC, and it is reading spurious data from some moderate impedance bridge on the input lines. This could be at the jack socket itself, or possibly further up the line.

I think cleaning the expression pedal socket would be worth a try. Unfortunately it is an enclosed PCB mount socket, so not so easy to work with.

I've not used expression pedals before, but I'm guessing they are just potentiometers, used as voltage dividers. It may be possible to just plug a jack into the pedal socket, and short the input to ground (make sure this is a good connection for testing purposes). This would overide any spurious bridging impedance. I think this would be equivalent to fully depression an expression pedal. Leave the input grounded and see if you still get the changing signal on CC11. This may provide you with some indication of a cause. If it doesn't help, then the cause is probably harder to fix. Hopefully no problems with the ADC scanning hardware, as that could be a hassle (I'm not sure how it's implemented in this case, but just guessing from some typical designs).

Wout Blommers wrote:
This is important, because CC 11 isn't assigned to a physical knob other then the Pedal, isn't it? So you can't replace the potmeter...


So swapping the ModWheel couldn't possibly have addressed the issue? Did a service centre recommend this action?

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not able to test anything yet, but just for the record I replace the expression pedal sometimes by a pressure sensitive resistor, which means it doesn't act as a voltage divider... I think... Embarassed

Wout

I hope...

















Well, I'm not sure, actually
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ilmolto wrote:
... I don't quite understand your instructions about putting every pot to 0 except one. Would you be able to explain a little more?
Well, it isn't that important, but I always thought it was the Gain which could act strang. It is crucial to find out which parameter is rotten!

Wout
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ilmolto



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oli wrote:
So swapping the ModWheel couldn't possibly have addressed the issue? Did a service centre recommend this action?


Hi Oli,

Thanks for your input. I had the Mod Wheel replaced because of this issue. Changing the Mod Wheel definitely didn't cause the problem because it was happening before I had it changed. I figured that if the Mod Wheel is triggering these annoying CC 11 messages, replacing it would solve the problem. Obviously I was wrong.

I've taken my Nord Lead 2X back and fourth several times to a repair center and it's just gotten worse. I really hate leaving my equipment with a stranger, even though it's at a repair center. My Nord Lead now has two little dents just beside the Mod Wheel that weren't there before. When he cleaned the Control Pedal jack, he vigorously jammed a 1/4 inch plug in there back and fourth several times. Is this standard procedure? Or should he have opened it up and cleaned it from the inside?

Oli wrote:
It may be possible to just plug a jack into the pedal socket, and short the input to ground (make sure this is a good connection for testing purposes). This would overide any spurious bridging impedance.


So just to clarify, I should plug a 1/4 inch jack into the Control Pedal input. Does it need to be connected to anything, or just plug the 1/4 inch jack by itself?

Regards,

Daniel
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Oli



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi, no probs for the input. I certainly don't have the answer though. I am more than happy to share my thoughts.

ilmolto wrote:
I had the Mod Wheel replaced because of this issue.


What I meant was, did you present this problem to a repair center, and they advised you to change the modwheel as a means of addressing the issue? If so, I would suggest that the advice was poorly considered, given that Wout has suggested that CC 11 is not controlled by the modwheel (I know this was only a suggestion, not verified). Anyway, just a thought.

ilmolto wrote:
I've taken my Nord Lead 2X back and fourth several times to a repair center and it's just gotten worse.


Do you have any other options for alternative repairers?

ilmolto wrote:
My Nord Lead now has two little dents just beside the Mod Wheel that weren't there before. When he cleaned the Control Pedal jack, he vigorously jammed a 1/4 inch plug in there back and fourth several times. Is this standard procedure? Or should he have opened it up and cleaned it from the inside?


Sounds pretty rough, gung-ho even. They definitely should be able to change a modwheel without denting the metal work. I believe the Nord jacks are enclosed types, which don't allow access for cleaning. However, if I were being paid to address an issue with a jack, I would probably desolder it, and replace it with a new one. They do usually charge quite a lot for their time, after all.

ilmolto wrote:
So just to clarify, I should plug a 1/4 inch jack into the Control Pedal input. Does it need to be connected to anything, or just plug the 1/4 inch jack by itself?


The jack would need to be connected to something, for the test I was suggesting. I'll do some reading on the electronics invloved, and confirm my assumptions first, and then get back to you. What I'm suggesting, is just a means of trouble-shooting. It may not pan out, and I'd best try to check my advice is sound to avoid additional issues.

You could actually try operating the synth with just a phono cable plugged into the expression pedal socket. However, this would be a pretty limited test, and could at best probably only eliminate some types of mechanical issue with the jack. Maybe not worth bothering with, but probably wouldn't hurt.

If you have a real expression pedal, you could connect it, and leave use the synth with the pedal locked in the fully open position, and also try with it locked in the fully closed position. See if it makes any difference. Focussing on the expression pedal input is just an effort to eliminate one simple possible cause.

By the way, are you comfortable with electronics repairs at all? If you have a mutimeter, you could try to measure the impedance accross the jack contacts. A DC impedance measurement should be sufficient for this purpose, which is available from all cheap mutimeters. If you do take a measurement, be ware that the issue may only present itself in an intermittent manner.

Have you examined the interior of your synth? You could check for general cleanliness, and for mechanical or corrosion issues on the PCB. Only do this if you are comfortable working with electrical devices, and of course don't open the synth with the mains connected.

Well, I'll get back to you when I have something more informed to add.

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ilmolto



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oli wrote:
What I meant was, did you present this problem to a repair center, and they advised you to change the modwheel as a means of addressing the issue? If so, I would suggest that the advice was poorly considered, given that Wout has suggested that CC 11 is not controlled by the modwheel (I know this was only a suggestion, not verified). Anyway, just a thought.


At the time, I didn't know it was actually expression data that was the problem. I thought that it was modulation data, as the Nord would only play up while I was using the Mod Wheel. And because expression data duplicates modulation data, you can see how I got it wrong. Then when I got the Nord back after having the Mod Wheel replaced, and the problem hadn't been resolved, I looked into the issue further. That's when I took it back to the repair center, told them that actually this is happening and he "cleaned" the Control Pedal jack. He didn't charge me for the last time, when he cleaned the jack, as it was a 5 minute "quick fix" while I was there with him.

Oli wrote:
By the way, are you comfortable with electronics repairs at all?


I'm certainly not familiar with any electronics repairs, so I won't even attempt to open it up. As much as I'd like to, I just don't want to risk it. Do you think an OS update might help? Is there even an updated OS for the Nord Lead 2X?
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Oli



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

I've done a little reading. From Page 9 of the Lead 2X manual, and the following Zoom expression pedal schematic from diystompboxes pedal page:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

It would seem that one can connect a pot across the TRS contacts of the control pedal input to act as an expression controller. I believe the maximum resistance of the pot should be between 10kOhm and 50kOhm. This is what I had assumed before.

However, what I am not sure of, is whether it is OK to have the pot reach the zero Ohm resistance point, for the minimum value. I expect it would be fine, though I don't have access to the Lead 2X schematics, so I can't confirm this. If it were my synth, I woud go ahead and assume it to be OK, though I don't want to advise you to do that, as it is not my synth. I could email Clavia tech support and sound them out on this for you if you like.

Basically, what I was going to suggest, was to short the control pedal input to ground, so that the input is fixed at zero volts, and shouldn't waver. Assuming that the input jack is not completely mangled, and that the input stage on the PCB is also not completely mangled, then this should be a reasonably safe bet as to the state of the input signal.

Now, given that the input signal is fixed at zero volts, if you continue to have issues with the synth reading/transmitting CC11, then at least you would have eliminated the control pedal input as a cause.

There would still be the matter of polarity to consider. The controller input state is determined by the voltage on the ring of the input jack. To zero this, you would need to connect the ring to either the tip, or the sleeve, but not both at the same time. Do not connect the tip to the sleeve.

Another avenue which might be worth investigating, is whether you can dissable the expression globally in software. I found the manual a little vague in this area, but perhaps you could take some time and read it more carefully. I know you can set the expression pedal input to control various parameters, but I wasn't sure if you could set it to control no parameters at all, so as to disable it.

Wout's previous suggestion that CC 11 is only for the expression pedal input, appears to be correct, based on my reading of page 74 of teh manual. Expression pedal input is transmitted as CC 11, and is also received on CC 11 via MIDI input. The effect of CC 11 will depend on the software configuration for the expression pedal.

If you like, I could email Clavia's tech support on your behalf, for this matter. This may be easier for you, if you are unsure of the technical aspects of what I have suggested. Otherwise, it may be better if you email them yourself. Let me know what you think.

Cheers,

Oli[/url]

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ilmolto



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oli,

I can't be more grateful for your help. I've tried emailing Clavia tech support some time ago about this issue with no reply from them. I eventually gave up trying to fix the problem and just accepted the fact that my Nord has a glitch that no one wants to help me with. It's only the last week or so that it's really started to bother me.

To answer your question about disabling the Expression Pedal completely, unfortunately you can't. There's 6 options: Off, LFO 1 Amount, LFO 2 Amount, Filter Cutoff Frequency, FM Amount and Oscillator 2 Pitch. When set to Off, the Expression Pedal duplicates the Mod Wheel. So in actual fact, Off does not mean off.

I'm thinking about opening up my Nord just to give things a little clean in there. I would only open it though with directions from someone who is familiar with it. Maybe Wout could help me with that. And if you wouldn't mind trying to email Clavia about whether it is OK to have the pot reach the zero Ohm resistance point, that would be helpful also.

Thanks again for all your help and hope to get this bug fixed soon.

Regards,

Daniel
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Oli



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

Glad to help (hopefully it will actually be helpful).

I'll send off a support request for you then. I'll need your serial number and OS version when I send the request.

Cheers

Oli

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ilmolto wrote:
... To answer your question about disabling the Expression Pedal completely, unfortunately you can't. There's 6 options: Off, LFO 1 Amount, LFO 2 Amount, Filter Cutoff Frequency, FM Amount and Oscillator 2 Pitch. When set to Off, the Expression Pedal duplicates the Mod Wheel. So in actual fact, Off does not mean off.
I use a work around, not very nice, but when not using LFO2 (which isn't that important if not set to the Arpeggiator) I press [2xArp] and LFO2 is disabled. After [Shift+7xSpecial > E.of] I scroll to [E. 2] This means the Pedal controls the LFO Amount/Arp Range, which is disabled...
Quote:
... I would only open it though with directions from someone who is familiar with it. Maybe Wout could help me with that. ...
See http://electro-music.com/forum/post-211756.html#211756
where opening up is shown in detail, although, when you have a cat sneaking around, use a little cup or tin to save the screws, although nothing is guaranteed...

Wout
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Oli



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
I use a work around, not very nice, but when not using LFO2 (which isn't that important if not set to the Arpeggiator) I press [2xArp] and LFO2 is disabled. After [Shift+7xSpecial > E.of] I scroll to [E. 2] This means the Pedal controls the LFO Amount/Arp Range, which is disabled...


Nice trick. Do you miss LFO2 much?


Wout Blommers wrote:
...when you have a cat sneaking around, use a little cup or tin to save the screws, although nothing is guaranteed...


I use one of these magnetic bowls from PowerBuilt:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

Very handy, but any magnet would do the same trick. The magnetic rubber base is good for clamping onto all sorts of metal surfaces, like the sides of cars, or metal frames of tables etc.

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oli wrote:
Nice trick. Do you miss LFO2 much?
No! What can I do with it? Just a little vibrato using Osc1+Osc2? Tremelo and Filter? In all three settings you won't notice one value more or less...
The Arpeggiator is something else, only, when the Pedal is assigned to the Arp Range, the Range itself has rather large zones, so a little more or less... Not audible, for sure Very Happy

I think it's only annoying when using the [Shift+LFO1-wave form] setting, where the values in the LCD screen will jump all the time...
So I want to be sure it's the Pedal or not...
Quote:
I use one of these magnetic bowls ...
Very handy, but any magnet would do the same trick. The magnetic rubber base is good for clamping onto all sorts of metal surfaces, like the sides of cars, or metal frames of tables etc.
Well, I was talking about the cat, didn't I? She would swing the bowl right underneath the upright piano!

Wink

Wout
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Oli



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
...She would swing the bowl right underneath the upright piano!


Except for three problems with your theory:
1) Bowl is heavy
2) The cat would more likely be looking for food or drink from the bowl, or just gaze it her own reflection in the shiny crome surface
3) Isn't a piano one of those patches on my synth, with an E- in front of it? How can you fit a bowl under that?

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Oli



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ooh, got a bit distracted for a minute.

Daniel, how about you try the work-around in the mean time, and see if it alleviates the symptoms.

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oli wrote:
Ooh, got a bit distracted for a minute. ...
Don't blame me! Very Happy

Wout

BTW, Daniel, shall we remove the emoticon in the forums index any time now?
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ilmolto



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Having trouble disabling LFO 2. I pressed Arp twice and LFO 2 is still enabled...
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Are all the LED's going out in LFO2?
At my NordLead2 it works perfectly.
Can you disable the ModEnv, by pressing the destination button several times until the LED's are dead?

Wout
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ilmolto



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
Are all the LED's going out in LFO2?


No Sad

Wout Blommers wrote:
Can you disable the ModEnv, by pressing the destination button several times until the LED's are dead?


Yes Smile
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe there is a difference in software between the NordLead2 and the NordLead2X...

I send you the SysEx file of a Program in the setting 'Muted LFO2'. In the picture you can see there is no destination in LFO2, so in the ModEnv. Download this file to your synth (I assume you are able to do this, I mean, using the right tools Wink) and look what happens. I'm curious...

If the Arpeggiator is already activated (LED) I press the Arp/LFO mode button only once, of course.

In the audio file the sound starts with a heavy vibrato by LFO2, switch to Arpeggiator and the second hit on the mode button stops the sound. Playing again there is no LFO2 anymore: no vibrato nor Arpeggiator...

Wout


Muting_LFO2.jpg
 Description:
A picture of the NordGenerator interface
 Filesize:  136.09 KB
 Viewed:  9044 Time(s)

Muting_LFO2.jpg



Muting_LFO2.syx
 Description:
The SysEx file

Download
 Filename:  Muting_LFO2.syx
 Filesize:  139 Bytes
 Downloaded:  82 Time(s)


Muting_LFO2.mp3
 Description:
The audio file

Download
 Filename:  Muting_LFO2.mp3
 Filesize:  70.74 KB
 Downloaded:  263 Time(s)

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ilmolto



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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I loaded the patch to my synth and just as you said, LFO 2 is bypassed. There is no LED lit at all, and if I tweak the LFO 2 Amount knob, nothing happens. I then enabled LFO 2 and tried to disable it, but it won't let me. Nice sounding patch though Wink
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I assume you are using a 2X?
Strange...
In another thread the 'Secret Filter' couldn't be enabled.

Wout
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Could it be the same problem?
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-242785.html#242785
Any Midi thing going on?

Wout
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