Joined: Oct 07, 2007 Posts: 7 Location: St John's, Newfoundland
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject:
Analog electronic hurdy-gurdy, help with idea?
Greetings, just found this forum and thought it would be the right place to pitch my idea. I'm in my mid-20s, and mainly play traditional/primitive folk music, particularly on the Appalachian dulcimer.
I'm really big into drones, modal scales, things like that. However, recently I've gotten interested in analog experimental instruments, and the possibilities of incorporating them into the primitive modal aesthetic.
Here's the creature I want to make an analog equivalent of:
The actual project I have in mind is an electronic hurdy-gurdy, basically just a flat slab of wood with the electronics to produce two continuous drones and one modulating melody line.
It would have two knobs controlling two drone pitches, another knob to set melody pitch, and a series of buttons to produce melody notes above the drones. For melody, a raised box on the slab with a series of buttons which can raise the pitch of the melody in a diatonic scale. With the extra room on the board (and my whole extra hand), maybe some knobs and levers for various effects, including maybe something to toggle to imitate the pulsing/barking effects used to break up the continuity in the playing, almost like a harsh waah.
Does this sound feasible within a reasonable budget? Are there builders I could comission such a creature from? Thanks for any leads or suggestions on improving this idea. Last edited by MatthewVanitas on Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Oct 07, 2007 Posts: 7 Location: St John's, Newfoundland
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Do you want it to have the sound of a real one or would you rather use it as a controller for an (arbitrary) electronic instrument?
I don't so much want the sound of a real one (not a sampler or anything), as much as I want an electronic instrument with the same drone/drone/melody characteristics.
As long as the instrument produces three tones, two constant and one modulated, I'm happy. I'd rather it sounded less bloop-bloop MIDI-like and more like... I'm not quite sure actually. Not quite like a theremin, and the pitch changes would be abrupt rather than swoopy, but something similarly pre-digital.
I suppose it wouldn't be too much trouble to add some sort of "TONE" knob onto the body as well?
I'm not looking for something you plug into a computer or run through a program, just something purely analog that I can jack into an amplifier and play.
My guess is that you'll be ending up doing some electronics yourself, unless someone else has a better idea of course It seems doable to me, and different from the usual DIY projects, interesting.
Would you mind if I moved this topic to the DIY section of the forum, with the idea that maybe it might trigger some creative ideas of the members hanging out there? _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Joined: Oct 07, 2007 Posts: 7 Location: St John's, Newfoundland
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject:
IRT moving: no worries, if you think it'd go better over there.
I really have no manual skills though, so I'm more looking for a gadgeteer who can assemble some parts to my specifications. If they have such folks in DIY, that could work. Although I'd feel a bit hypocritical asking folks in DIY to do things for me, but then again I'm more of an idea man.
Joined: May 17, 2007 Posts: 456 Location: Northern CA, USA
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject:
Re: Analog electronic hurdy-gurdy, help with idea?
MatthewVanitas wrote:
Greetings, just found this forum and thought it would be the right place to pitch my idea. I'm in my mid-20s, and mainly play traditional/primitive folk music, particularly on the Appalachian dulcimer.
Hi Matthew!
What a cool idea! I loved your video and the way you left the wheel cover off and the keybox open so we could see the tangents. Did you make this instrument you are playing? It looks very traditional and less refined (I mean this in a good way!) than many HG's we see nowadays.
It brings back memories. I used to build mountain dulcimers(after Howie Mitchell) and hammered dulcimers in the late 70's early 80's. Still have a Lyn Elder (Dominican College in San Rafael) planset for a Hurdy gurdy somewhere. Visited with Lyn a couple times 25 some odd years ago to see/learn more, but it never got built. Why just today my girlfriend And I were watching a movie that ended with Donovan's song. (I like it; she doesn't!) And now to see not one, but TWO traditional Hurdy Gurdys on e-m!
I think your project is very do-able. But IMO there's a long ways between simply doing the 2 drones, one chanter that you say will make you happy... And something that actually will.
Like other bowed instruments there is a lot going on in the HG sound that isn't immediately obvious; or perhaps better stated; isn't simple to do with a couple bog-standard circuits. The fact that you've got the buzzing bridge and its control, the box resonances... (Yes, I saw that you weren't necessarily looking for the same sound; but I think you'll still appreciate a musical instrument that has character beyond 3 osc's and a tone knob?)
My head is swimming with ideas. I'd sure be interested in hearing your further thoughts on the subject. Feel free to contact me.
As I was watching the video Jan posted I was thinking about how to incorporate the IMO very important Crank and wheel aspects of playing into the unit. So much of playing an HG is wheel dynamics. Would hate to see that given up; but it does pose some interesting challenges. Because we're more interested in the start, stop and speed changes of the "wheel" than in some value set by position. A PID/PLL servo type circuit with the output to the osc's coming from the feedback loop might be one way to get there from here. You "could" do it instead with a knob, and "chart" the changes; but I think it would be really cool if your new device could be immediately used by anyone familiar with the traditional instrument. Besides, once you have the crank and wheel figured out, any "lesser" means of control is easy!
Again, very cool idea. Would love to collaborate.
Randal
Quote:
I'm really big into drones, modal scales, things like that. However, recently I've gotten interested in analog experimental instruments, and the possibilities of incorporating them into the primitive modal aesthetic.
Here's the creature I want to make an analog equivalent of:
The actual project I have in mind is an electronic hurdy-gurdy, basically just a flat slab of wood with the electronics to produce two continuous drones and one modulating melody line.
Does this sound feasible within a reasonable budget? Are there builders I could comission such a creature from? Thanks for any leads or suggestions on improving this idea.
Joined: Oct 07, 2007 Posts: 7 Location: St John's, Newfoundland
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:59 am Post subject:
@Randaleem:
Glad you're also interested in this idea!
The YouTube clip isn't mine, just one that's very representative of what I like, and had the keybox open to show the tangents (as you noted)
You bring up good points about adding other aspects to the e-gurdy to emulate the wheel dynamics. Some kind of small toggle that the right hand can tap in rhythmn to imitate the buzzing-bridge (chien) would be the main thing, maybe a spring-loaded toggle that introduces a momentary distortion?
I do need knobs to set the frequency for each of the three "oscs" so that I can tune it to other instruments and to the modal scales. A tone knob and a volume knob would also be good. I know what a tone knob does sound-wise, but I have no idea what it does electronically, or what the full range of tone options is.
So in addition to 3 tuning knobs, volume and tone knobs, definitely adding some kind of pulser/phaser/waah (or all of the above) on spring-loaded toggles for the right hand. Anything else jump to mind for imitating the right hand technique?
Joined: Oct 07, 2007 Posts: 7 Location: St John's, Newfoundland
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:16 am Post subject:
StephenGiles wrote:
Are you aware that Ritchie Blackmore plays a mean hurdy gurdy with Blackmore's Night?
Indeed, the hurdy gurdy has been making a strong comeback (in a niche way) over the last 15 years or so. Several professional luthiers with websites up, lots of good YouTube clips, a few high-profile appearances (w/ Page/Plant, etc).
The Omnichord idea is interesting, but that would be more of an e-dulcimer, which would be cool but a totally different project.
What I'm thinking of is basically
-a theremin (well, not really, but bear with me here)
-with a constant melody line
-with 2 constant, fixed drones
-where melody is raised in discrete amounts by pushing a row of buttons
As noted in Randaleem's post, it'd be good to add a couple rhythmn effects on the right side of the body, in order to imitate the changes in wheel dynamics done with the right hand on an acoustic model. I'll go find some example clips of folks using the chien (barking bridge), pulsing the wheel by breaking up the spin, etc. As said, I think putting in a row of flange/waah/distort switches by the right hand would do this fine.
I'm not a solder-boy (or whatever you call the kind of folks who build grotboxes and experimental analog critters and all), so I don't know if what I'm proposing is a 90min project or something pretty intensive, so it'd be great if someone could clue me in as to what aspects are tricky, and which are easy.
If getting three osc tones (one of which is variable by button) and then adding a distort switch and flange switch is a really easy project, I have a few ideas to add to it to make it more versatile, mainly in terms of re-tuning.
EDIT: what I want is something kind of like what crashlander42 builds, but with a hurdy-gurdy interface:
[...]I don't know if what I'm proposing is a 90min project or something pretty intensive, so it'd be great if someone could clue me in as to what aspects are tricky, and which are easy.
This also depends on how much money you want to spend on it, it will never be a 90 min thing though
The easiest way to go would probably to have some analog (semi) modular thing which could just be bought, the problem will then be reduced to how to set up the control circuitry. This will cost a bit of course. _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Joined: May 17, 2007 Posts: 456 Location: Northern CA, USA
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject:
Hi Matthew,
Crashlander's vid is of a Soundlab and the cracklebox/WSG combination he calls "The Summoner". So if that's the sound(s) you're after, it just got a lot easier. Because all of those are published online (individual parts, not necessarily CL42's combination) and relatively easy to build, with good support for a newbie builder. Figure probably 2-300 dollars in parts overall. Probably want to check out the Ray Wilson/ MFOS forum at this electro-music site for details on the Soundlab and WSG. Tom Bugs' Bugbrand site has some cracklebox implementations and useful info worth looking at IMO.
An HG is basically a wheel-bowed viola, so you're looking at a string synth if you want to pursue it going another direction. Start with a couple sawtooth osc's and add a filter and/or waveshapers. The signature HG sound of a buzz bridge can be had from a PWM/square wave osc (and these are cheap simple and very useful also as chorusing for the saw oscs to get a more realistic bowed string sound.
The melody control is easy, just a slightly modified keyboard circuit. The sound lab/WSG might be a really great way to go. Because I think you'll appreciate having more "synth" available as you use this. The UI is the thing that's different really. And most of it is pretty simple; just pick the knobs you want to use and set up the notes you want to play with switches.
Jan hit the nail on the head, IMO when he asked if you wanted to duplicate the HG sound or the controls.
90 minutes? Perhaps a "radio shack" mini-organ x3 could be done in this time. But I don't think it will give you what you want. (But for 20-30 dollars and a weekend you could have a 3 osc, melody and distortion circuit up and running that might be closer than you think!)
There are many different paths, each viable. So many in fact that if I were you I'd want to have a budget in terms of time and cost to help me decide which path(s) to begin pursuing. Lotta ways to skin this cat.
To me, the most interesting part is the wheel/crank UI implementation. The rest is basic synth. Which can be as simple as your ears can stand, or or as sonically deep as you want to go. Add or subtract time and money as needed.
Making two or three simple saw oscs (two drones and a chanter) and a PWM for the buzz can be easier than going after a typical v/oct synth method since you're not asking it to interface in myriad ways. It just needs to sound good during a performance. OTOH, going this way you're mostly on your own. Taking things out of circuits that you don't need, like expos and wide range freq. capability. Adding specific distortion components. OR...
Building a soundlab and WSG probably gets you close, and you'll learn a lot and have something interesting for other things too.
Pick a budget and propose a timeframe, and it will be easier to give decent advice? I'd sure go different directions with this depending upon those two parameters.
Regardless, I'm kinda jazzed about the possibility of a "new" controller based on the cranked wheel of an HG. Thank you for bringing this subject up! Jan, others, Any thoughts on this part? Seems an encoder and some type of servo circuit would be a starting point?
Some thoughts: Seems like if you're going to do a hurdy gurdy, you need to keep the wheel. What would the wheel do? I think if turning speed controlled two control voltages--one a DC voltage that would rise with turning speed, the other an LFO that would speed up with turning speed. The DC could maybe open up the vca slightly as turning speed increases, possibly increase filter resonance too. LFO could maybe give a very slight pitch wobble, & maybe modulate pulse width/wave shape? Maybe throw some sort of distortion circuit in there somewhere too. Or maybe as you turned faster it would feed back a little of the output signal to the filter input.
Also, it seems that hardwiring a really neat sounding instrument with relatively limited access to sound shaping (beyond the performance controls) would be the coolest way to go. Rather than make a do-anything box, focus on making it do one(or a few) things really well.
I make no claim to be an expert on hurdy gurdys or synthesizers, so take my comments for what they're worth.
Joined: Oct 07, 2007 Posts: 7 Location: St John's, Newfoundland
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject:
Quote:
The melody control is easy, just a slightly modified keyboard circuit. The sound lab/WSG might be a really great way to go. Because I think you'll appreciate having more "synth" available as you use this. The UI is the thing that's different really. And most of it is pretty simple; just pick the knobs you want to use and set up the notes you want to play with switches.
I'm going to have to do a little reading-up here, to figure out what a Soundlab or a WSG are. But I'm pleased to hear that some parts of this might be relatively straightforward/easy.
Quote:
Jan hit the nail on the head, IMO when he asked if you wanted to duplicate the HG sound or the controls.
Definitely just the controls. I'm going for a HG concept, not trying to accurately simulate the actual sound of an HG. As long as I have two drone tones and one melody tone which is raised in discrete intervals (not a slide), I'm happy.
Quote:
Some thoughts: Seems like if you're going to do a hurdy gurdy, you need to keep the wheel.
I'm going to disagree here: adding an actual physical wheel would take this project in a different (and complicated) direction. It would certainly be cool, but for my purposes the wheel is a (disposable) means to an end, not an end to itself. I can achieve a continual note without a wheel, so why have one?
Admittedly, a very cool idea, but out of my skill level/budget.
Though I might end up buying/building a nicer one later, I might stick to something really straightforward for the prototype: three tone generators, one of which set up with a series of buttons to raise the pitch. The barking bridge is actually a later invention, not present on medieval gurdies (which is kind of what I'm going for), but it wouldn't hurt to add some sort of spring-loaded waah or distorter that my right hand can tap rhythmically as I play the melody with my left.
It would help considerably to have knobs to raise and lower the pitch of the tones themselves. That way I could use the knobs to set the drones to, say, D and A, and then set the chanter to C so that I could start the scale on the 1st button and play in a minor. That way I could still play all the modal scales with a diatonic keybox.
The more I think about it, it's pretty similar to an electronic bagpipe, except a different body shape/ergonomic, and with the added waah/distort/flange toggle(s).
Not to totally chump out, but since I have limited ability with electro-gear, am traveling and don't even have all my tools, and will most likely be working overseas in a month or two, I'm pretty keen to hire an amateur builder to piece together at least the prototype for me.
Budget: supposing I go with the mimimalist version I mention in this post, does $100-200 for parts sound insanely low, or reasonable for something that basic? Realizing that if I pay someone to assemble it, that would add a fair bit more, but perhaps some savings on assembly if I hire some college kid who would have fun doing it, and could play with it for months until I get back to the US.
Joined: May 17, 2007 Posts: 456 Location: Northern CA, USA
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:25 pm Post subject:
Hi hodad,
Great comments.
hodad wrote:
Some thoughts: Seems like if you're going to do a hurdy gurdy, you need to keep the wheel.
Agreed.
Now, playing devil's advocate: But could a pot knob effectively re-create the dynamics of the wheel? I think it could. In the traditional HG the wheel/crank starts/stops and modulates the tones. Modulation is dependent upon the rate and spacing of the wheel starts and stops. When the wheel is being rotated smoothly, there is "no" effect. It is esentially a Null/on position. So a knob with a single on/off switch could probably do everything the crank/wheel does? In traditional synth terms think of using the bend wheel with a manual EG switch for on off. The EG simulates the build up and decay of the drones, and the pot knob we'll use is the EG's sustain level. Only we're using it here for pitch. With a voltage level switch patched in here we could trigger a second EG modeling the attacks of a fast partial turn of the crank. We do this by pushing the mod wheel rapidly upscale, using the same kind of hand action that a traditional HG player uses, but without the whole circle of movement. This increased voltage operated switch could also bring on the pulsed "bark" of the "dog" string, i.e., the buzzing bridge. The mod wheel voltage itself could of course be used. The addition of a VC switch allows scaling and other devices to be easily integrated.
One possible physical arrangement could be a large-ish knob (Think Bode Freq shifter) with a touch switch in its center. If this central switch were proximity or capacitively actuated, then the closeness of your palm (or a finger) to it would simulate the on off, with the actual knob position (away from null) giving the modulation. Not to mention the opportunity to incorporate cracklebox type effects. Since the pot doesn't turn very far, the wiring to the central switch is not a problem. And the large knob further aids this.
I can visualise a 2x2" or 3x3" (50 or 75mm sq.) "stick" box about 16-20" (4-500mm) long with this knob on one end, and a set of pitch keys along one "side" of the box. A couple guitar strap buttons, and a mouse or midi style connector for outputting multiple CV's and gates/Trigs on a single cable would complete the controller. Solid body guitar style wings could be added to help it lie in ones lap more naturally, and accomodate playing while standing. As an instrument additional knobs would be available and there would be the single 1/4" jack output. (But I'd bring out the CV's and gates trigs on this version too! (The whole thing could just be a MIDI CC's controller; but I like the not-MIDI idea Matthew first expressed!)
What's left out here is that a steadily rotating wheel is only null for the drones and chanter. Its speed does not significantly affect their pitch. BUT it's speed DOES affect the pitch of the buzz bridge. (Called the "dog" and a number of other names; depending upon country and age.) So a servo P term could feed the pulse osc to model this. It would be modified by the D term. The combination of the two should ? be enough to completely model the dog. Thus a servo loop tied to the pot's central null posiiton could provide useful outputs too. But only? if an additional pot(or other input device) is used to model the rate of the wheels turning. Or was that already modeled by the first pot?
Quote:
Also, it seems that hardwiring a really neat sounding instrument with relatively limited access to sound shaping (beyond the performance controls) would be the coolest way to go. Rather than make a do-anything box, focus on making it do one(or a few) things really well.
Yes, this is what I'd hope ultimately results as well. Having said that; I can sure see how starting with at least a basic monosynth might get the major forks in the road along that path traversed more quickly. As Jan said, if you do that you can focus your efforts on the control aspects. Which are not so easy? To perhaps answer your question of exactly what that wheel should do. Then refine the desired sound.
OTOH, starting from raw osc's and adding distortion and waveshaping to sculpt the instrument's sound is a pretty interesting path too. The lack of a "typical" synth framework might result in some "happy accidents" that would be missed going at it the other way.
Take a subtractive or additive path? Now where have I heard those terms before?!
Quote:
I make no claim to be an expert on hurdy gurdys or synthesizers, so take my comments for what they're worth.
No need to be either to make great comments. Thank you for doing so here!
A hurdy gurdy controller sounds like a really cool idea. For this particular project, you could probably get away with a few really simple oscillator circuits and a forrest mims toy organ type circuit. all of these could obstensibly be run on 9 volts-ish, which could then maybe be provided/ modulated by the crank out of one of those emergency radios? IIRC, some of those have a good bit of resistance (mechanical) to them and would well simulate the satisfying crank of the H-G. Not entirely sure of the specs on them as I don't have one on hand(so unprepared in an emergency) but this could also lend to the device's portability. Just spitballin here, but if anyone knows more about this, I' also love to know.
-justin
Joined: Oct 21, 2006 Posts: 292 Location: Orlando, FL (US)
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject:
I always wanted a Hurdy Gurdy. I used to covet the Hurdy Gurdy kit in the Music Makers kits catalog when I was a kid. Never managed to talk my parents into getting it for me. I skimmed this thread yesterday and ended up daydreaming about it at work today.
I would think a 2 voice Soundlab would be neat for the drone. You could probably use the LFO to get a warbling sound reminiscent of the wheel, but you'd also have a lot of control over the texture of the drone sounds. You'd also end up with a lot of knobs and switches on your Electro-Gurdy, but that's not really a bad thing if you into that.
I doubt very much that the WSG or Cracklebox would really meet your needs. While they're neat to play with or make ambient background sounds with they are not very "musical". This could be due to limited imagination.
Maybe a dual Soundlab (also look at Uncle Krukus's stripboard design) deal? (Since it's such a well documented project for beginners) Keeping in mind that you don't *NEED* all those knobs and switches. You could have a single bus keyboard running up the neck to control the "lead"
sound. (You can purchase the board or work off of stripboard)
I seem to remember a stripboard design somewhere that repeated the Oscillator section of the Soundlab. That might work as well. You could have the CV from the single bus keyboard control oscillators 1&2 and have 3&4 droning. I think it's also possible to have two of the oscillators bypass the VCA/VCF so that the envelope only effects the lead sound.
What would be really bad-ass is a capacitive keyboard running up the neck, but I have no idea how to do that.
These other guys know what they're talking about more than me though. _________________ When they plug me in the lights go down in Hong Kong.
I know I haven't digested everything that's been written here, but I had some thoughts for a controller wheel as I was going to sleep last night, so...
The crank turns a disc that has regularly spaced holes around its diameter. On one side of the holes is a light source(probably LED), on the other side an LDR. I'm thinking you could get a control voltage that would vary with the cranking speed--sort of like an opto compressor but different. (Were there organs that used this method for tone generation? Maybe a Raymond Scott device?)
In addition to or instead of this could be a light/LDR combo where the light gets brighter with faster cranking, thus causing a higher control voltage to flow with faster spinning. This would give you a DC CV for whatever purposes. Maybe you could detect light level changes and use this as a trigger for increased modulation. Steady rate=small wobble. Rate change=bigger wobble.
Also there would be a switch that would be triggered when there was a change in wheel direction. This would trigger an EG to generate the startup sound. There's got to be a really good way to implement this, but I don't know it.
Quote:
When the wheel is being rotated smoothly, there is "no" effect. It is esentially a Null/on position.
I don't think this is really true of the HG in the first video. The (intentional or otherwise) "imperfections" in the wheel give it a little timbral wobble. Also, I think if you're going to do drones you need some subtle timbral and/or pitch variation to keep your audience from pulling their hair out.
Also, I think that ideally the lights would be powered by the cranking of the wheel.
Joined: Dec 26, 2006 Posts: 144 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:28 am Post subject:
hodad wrote:
Also, I think that ideally the lights would be powered by the cranking of the wheel.
OK - I solved this one for an LED torch project: An ex-printer stepper motor, turned via it's own step down gearing (making it a step - up, when used in reverse).
You can polyphase rectify the output from the coils to get quite a reasonable power output. If you did 2 sets of rectifiers, one could charge some supercaps fro the power supply, and a 'faster' set could give you an indication of RPM and movement.
You'd probably have to crank it a few times before switching on the electronics.
Now that would be cool - a self powered analog Hurdy-Gurdy. _________________ Mike
One more thing that occured to me: It might be cool to have two "LFO generators" on the wheel (ie. light/LDR combos.) One would have a period equivalent to one turn of the wheel to give a simulation of variation in a physical wheel; the other would have a much shorter period & would be used for other modulations.
Joined: Nov 13, 2006 Posts: 40 Location: DEEPSOUTH
Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject:
this is a prettier version of a wheel sound thing i was working on the silver knob on the side is a heavy weighted knob that turns a highly modded rotary switch that i rebuilt to allow rapid 360 degree turns. it has a tone circuit that has a common ground and as the wheel is turned,the notes fire off. the scale is whole toned, if i recall and there is a photo eye that allows pitchshifting via a rapid flashing super bright white led! I have another circuit that will have drone circuits as well.(based on an old texas instrument SN chip!) here is a youtube video that will demo it better! I would look into the electronic Indian drone boxes (sutri, i believe is the name)used by sitar players. Hope this helps!
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Matthew
It seems doable to me, and different from the usual DIY projects, interesting.
