PC audio interface question

zynthetix · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:23 pm Post subject: PC audio interface question

I recently "upgraded" to Windows XP pro which renders all of my current audio cards obsolete. Crying or Very sad

I was wondering if anyone could recommend a particular ASIO card/manufacturer based off my needs:

the computer is:
2.4 ghz intel pentium 4
1 ghz ddr ram (800 bus)
Running windows XP pro as OS
I am also using Cubase SX 2.0 and Reaktor 4....low audio card latency is essential for these programs to be used in combination.

I don't really have use for 8 inputs and outputs on a digital audio interface, and I require at least 2 inputs and 2 outputs.

Also, I'm looking to stay around $500-$700 US dollars... I would have already bought the DigiDesign 001, but it is not yet compatible with windows XP (consequently, i'm thinking about the DigiDesign 002, but theres a big price jump between the 001 and 002). The most likely canidate for my purchase is the DigiDesign M-Box, but I am skeptical of it's USB interface.

If anybody has any information or suggestions regarding any of this, please post a reply and thanks a lot.

mosc · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:44 pm Post subject:

I've got a Creative Sound Blaster Live 5.1 Digital card you can try out. Maybe you can use it until you figure out a better solution. I don't know much about it. I don't even know if it has an ASIO driver. I got it because it supports DXI, I think that's what it's called, to play games, but I don't have time for games so I removed it from my system. I use the Yamaha DSP Factory cards which are good enough for me. I think if I were going to buy a new sound card, I'd go with a Firewire interface, so it would be easy to use from multiple computers. Perhaps there would be less noise too. I hear good things about M-Audio.

What is the advantage of ASIO over the WDM drivers? I recently upgraded to XP myself. I needed to do this in order to run Sonar 3. They support both ASIO and WDM drivers, but seem to recommend the WDM ones.

My next audio interface will have to have at least 8 inputs so I can record live performances with multiple performers. I currently can record 6 inputs, just barley enough for Xeroid Entity.

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:05 am Post subject:

I just got he tM-Audio Firewire 410 device. I use it on a G4 dual cpu 500 mhz box. It has two outs and 8 outs.. and has a lot of features. It should be within your budget. The sound is really good.. but I havent really spent that much time with it yet. The drivers supplied with the device were beta version.. but I have just now downloaded the release versions of it. I did not experience any problems with the beta software.

The unit is in metal, pretty heavy for its size and seems solid. Actually.. the thing weighs more than a MOTU 828 interface. I agree with Howard about firewire interfaces.. I can use these boxes on the laptop, on the main workstation.. even on PCs .. just great. supposedly PCI audio interface cards can have more noise.. I do not know if this is a myth . -but theoretically a PCI audiocard can easily be affected by other componenets in the PC.

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:09 am Post subject:

i have a friend who got the M-Box. The mic amps sound better on the Motu 828 and the M-Audio 410. And.. he has discovered that USB audio is not as great as the advertising tells us.
Bottom line: The Focusrite mic amps in the M-Box are not that good really.

DES · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:18 pm Post subject:

Hello everyone!

M-Audio has wide variety of audio interfaces that should meet your needs. Firewire is definitely a good suggestion as it is the most transportable between systems (as is USB 2.0). If you only need 2x2 or 4x4 audio I/O, USB 2.0 will work ok... We have a M-Audio OmniStudio USB at the store that has been working real well and is priced very reasonably... Check your local stores and see what they have that meets your i/o needs - if the selection is very limited, try looking on line. You will find that most of the prices are going to be close from one retailer to the next...make sure you purchase from someone you can stand dealing with should you have the need to "discuss" your purchase...

To get the best performance from your system - make sure that ASIO drivers are really available for the card you choose...

ASIO - besides being a genus of European owls Laughing

(honest!) stands for Audio System Input/Output and was developed by Steinberg. An ASIO driver is usually VERY efficient allowing extremely low latency with your audio system - if you use a software mixer the time between moving a fader and hearing the difference is significantly shorter with ASIO drivers. Also - with soft synths the time from when you push a key on your controller to when the note sounds can be reduced drastically - an average 6ms latency seems to be what most people are reporting.

The SB Live does not have ASIO Factory drivers though the www.kxproject.com has developed ASIO drivers (I was never able to get them to work). The SB Audigy series does have ASIO drivers available though honestly the audio from a SB card does not compare at all with a good M-audio, MOTU, Echo, etc.. professional sound card...

Well, that's my $.02....I'll post later regarding my extended absence from the board...it's good to be posting again!

DES

mosc · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:58 pm Post subject:

zynthetix · Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:12 pm Post subject:

thank you all, this info has been very useful. Very Happy

and btw,

soundfreak · Joined: Oct 23, 2003 Posts: 7 Location: gothenburg sweden

M-Audiophile 24/96 Very Happy

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

For what it's worth...

I've been using an Echo Mia for over 2 years now, and have had nothing but goot experience with it. They now have a version with Midi for what I paid for my midifree version, $200. It's 2 in/2 Out balanced TRS plus S/PDIF i/o. I have a synthbox running a variety of softsynths on it, S/PDIFed to the Mia via an SBLive! and a hacked S/PDIF connecter off the expansion header of the Live card. Since the Live does 48 k onboard, this works out well as I track all my audio at 24/48... what in the world am I talking about here?

The Mia has served me well, that's all I'm saying. Shaka!

Cyx

seraph · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:50 am Post subject:

I propose to form the League for the Preservation of 16/44.1 and to write the Declaration of A/D/A Rights.
We now have the luxury to record at 24bits/96KHz and beyond and then all we listen to are mp3 files Shocked

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

Touche!

Cyx

seraph · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:21 am Post subject:

zynthetix · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:59 pm Post subject:

I failed to mention that I ended up purchasing the m-audio firewire 410...sounds good so far but I haven't gotten to record too much yet and interfacing it with Win XP/certain software hasn't been the most pleasing experience...(I'm scape-goating the blame on Win XP though Wink

)

I had an Echo Gina card for quite a few years. Sounds like the Mia. Only 16 bit/44.1khz but it was fine until it was rendered obsolete.

elektro80 · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:12 pm Post subject:

I have the 410 myself. I like the unit. It works OK. Pretty decent sound.
A buddy down the street thinks it sounds far superior to his Digi-002 and 001. I am not in the position to argue that one way or another but yes.. it does sound pretty decent.

elektro80 · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:36 pm Post subject:

I have been doing all my recordings at 24bit 44.1khz since I started out with using harddisk recording. I only do capture at higher specs when I need to do sigificant processing of the signal.

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

AgentA · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:35 pm Post subject:

Thanks for all the good info gang. I gotta bookmark this for when I upgrade like zynthetix.

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

They can have more noise as the A/D and D/A converters are exposed to a greater degree of RF and such from the rest of the PC, which is one of the reasons why most high-end prosumer interfaces, and all professional interfaces, are either external (Apogee) or have external breakouts (Layla, Digi, etc). With the Mia, I am coming out of a Mackie 32-8's mains at +4 and have no issues with noise whatsoever. It is, after all, a balanced signal, so there is noise cancellation inherent, and most of my tracking is so meticulous that the noise floor is virtually non-existant.

Of course, being a PCI card leaves less room for play with regards to headroom, again, due to the noise inherent in the system.

Cyx

elektro80 · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:47 pm Post subject:

Man, are times different? I started out with reel to reel multitrackers. Noise was always an issue. And those external devices.. the Roland Space-Echo units.. the springs.. the whatnots.. gee..
I love all this new tech. When I think about new and old gear I regret selling off a few items but all in all what I have now is far superior and more musical.

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

How's this for nauseating...

Coming off the mains of my console, and at 24 bit resolution, my noisefloor is generally about -102 db at the A/D converters if I recall. I'll have to verify that when I get my studio reassembled.

Cyx

seraph · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:47 am Post subject:

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

The meticulousness has more to do with how I prep the gear to track. I do spend an inordinate amount of time eliminating noise. The noise floor I spoke of is strictly the mains on the console through the interface, to illustrate the cleanliness of the interface itself (per the topic of discussion). Introducing any equipment into the chain ups the floor substantially, as it adds the floor of the equipment AND the channel strip to the signal, at no demerit of the audio card's.

Insofar as that is concerned through, I up the midi volume to the max unless the output of the gear clips on output, which the DM5 has a bad habit of doing, especially on the kicks. Then I bump the channel fader to the max and bring down the trim until I'm only marginally clipping, then bring the slider down until the Mia registers a peak at about -0.5 db or so, that way I can pull the hottest signal possible without clipping at the Mia, and thus minimize the noise floor while tracking.

Or something like that. The hardest part is compensating for the gear itself's noisefloor. I never process pre-A/D converter, with the exception of some high-end cut on certain instruments to eliminate hiss. Once I have everything tracked, I do some mild multiband compression to eliminate the remaining noise/hiss before importing the tracks for mixdown, that way my mixes are sparkling clean. And that Lasagna I stole from work tonite hit the spot like a mofo.

Cyx

seraph · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:49 am Post subject:

In my opinion, art is the result of channeling the lasagna from one's fork through the pocket of one's trousers.
btw what's a mofo?

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

A mofo is a mother fu..... That's American ghetto-speak for you.

Cyx

seraph · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:14 pm Post subject:

gee.. every day I learn something new, I had asked for help to my trustworthy on-line dictionary with no results, only stuff like
Suggestions for mofo:
1. Moho
2. muffs
3. muff
4. mojo
5. moto
6. modo
7. motu
8. mau-mau
9. Mfume
10. Numfoor
11. muumuu
12. Malmo
13. Mugu
but now I am OK, it's un-f***ing-believable
Shocked