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G2Psy
Joined: Feb 06, 2009 Posts: 60 Location: Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:58 am Post subject:
Can an oscillator start at the same point every note on? |
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Simple bass notes need to start at the same point every note to sound consistent. There's nothing more annoying than a bass saw wave which sometimes has a click at the start and sometimes doesn't because the phase of the cycle is changing every note. Oscillators don't seem to let you set the cycle start and some LFO's do, but even an LFO for bass notes does not start at the same point everytime - I've never gotten it to work.
Can I do this somehow?
Regards,
B |
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Wout Blommers
Joined: Sep 07, 2003 Posts: 4529 Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:26 am Post subject:
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In a spontaneous reaction couldn't work the Gate output into the OscSync input?
Wout |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24170 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:26 am Post subject:
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Use the sync input for audio rate oscillators and the reset input for LFOs, and connect these to the note-on trigger (usually the same thing that would start your envelope).
Edit : oops, Wout beat me _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Wout Blommers
Joined: Sep 07, 2003 Posts: 4529 Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:29 am Post subject:
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YES! I'm the winner!
That's what spontaneous does for you
Wout Last edited by Wout Blommers on Fri May 29, 2009 5:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24170 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 280
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:30 am Post subject:
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_________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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G2Psy
Joined: Feb 06, 2009 Posts: 60 Location: Melbourne Australia
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G2Psy
Joined: Feb 06, 2009 Posts: 60 Location: Melbourne Australia
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G2 patch files: 2
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:47 pm Post subject:
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Bloody hell, it DOES work now. It worked after saving the pch2 to attach to you and loading it back into the G2. That is totally weird, adding the gate to osc sync did not make a difference while I had the editor open and before saving the patch.
Please ban me from further posting for your own sanity's sake
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blue hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24170 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 280
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:28 pm Post subject:
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G2Psy wrote: | Please ban me from further posting for your own sanity's sake |
No way it's odd what happened for sure ... looking at the patch it should just work .. erm .. as it now does _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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G2Psy
Joined: Feb 06, 2009 Posts: 60 Location: Melbourne Australia
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Antimon
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Sweden
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iPassenger
Joined: Jan 27, 2007 Posts: 1068 Location: Sheffield, UK
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Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 2:46 am Post subject:
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Looking at the patch I imagine the difference is caused by the release phase of the envelopes, as the envelopes are set to "N", they do not restart on note on at beginning but from wherever the release has got to at the next note on.. switching them to "\/R" should solve the starts of each envelope.
BTW: this is just a guess based on looking at the patch not testing it.. so sorry if i am off the mark. _________________ iP (Ross)
- http://ipassenger.bandcamp.com
- http://soundcloud.com/ipassenger |
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G2Psy
Joined: Feb 06, 2009 Posts: 60 Location: Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:04 am Post subject:
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These are great ideas, and I'm learning some fine details along the way. Sorry iPassenger, the reset for the envelope doesn't make a difference but I will definitely use this setting for most envelopes from now on. The blip is coming from the filter, as you correctly spotted Antimon, but I haven't found a way to remove the blips yet. I even inverted the envelope and set a longer attack thinking that the fast opening of the filter caused the blip but that is no different either.
This basic patch shows a lot about any synth engine, its my favourite "get to know your synth" patch. In this case it has taught me a lot about the G2 and revealed a mystery. IMO quite a few synths fail this test, but the G2 has this unexpected behaviour.
Regards to all,
B |
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Antimon
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Sweden
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Antimon
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Sweden
Audio files: 371
G2 patch files: 100
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Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:30 am Post subject:
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BTW, have you looked at the PM oscillator, maybe you can use that? Unfortunately it only has sine and triangle.
/Stefan _________________ Antimon's Window
@soundcloud @Flattr home - you can't explain music |
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iPassenger
Joined: Jan 27, 2007 Posts: 1068 Location: Sheffield, UK
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Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:47 am Post subject:
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Yeah its definately the filter.. take that out and it is the same every time.. how odd... Must be part of the filter algo. Tried a few of the filters and they all exhibit the same behaviour.
Tried a few different modules too (sat module etc) to see if it was caused by the delay in processing the signal through more modules etc.. and they did not intoduce this problem.
The filters must introduce some kind of fixed delay. _________________ iP (Ross)
- http://ipassenger.bandcamp.com
- http://soundcloud.com/ipassenger |
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iPassenger
Joined: Jan 27, 2007 Posts: 1068 Location: Sheffield, UK
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G2Psy
Joined: Feb 06, 2009 Posts: 60 Location: Melbourne Australia
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xav
Joined: Mar 21, 2005 Posts: 164 Location: paris
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Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:07 am Post subject:
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Hello,
This threat interests me very much since I already noticed this "problem":
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-31044.html
I would really like to understand if the osc doesn't want to start at 0 when synchronized to gate, or if the noise comes from the EG.
I repatched a lot of sounds with EG before filters but I don't like that, because I like to patch several OSC to parallel filters... For instance a saw to a LPF and a Square to a BPF... and if the EG isn't after, this type of patch requires as many EG as parallel voice, and 4 morph groups if one desires the same setting for all the EG. |
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Tim Kleinert
Joined: Mar 12, 2004 Posts: 1148 Location: Zürich, Switzerland
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Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:25 am Post subject:
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xav wrote: | H
I would really like to understand if the osc doesn't want to start at 0 when synchronized to gate... |
Couldn't the problem be connected to the fact that the yellow gate signal is only updated at 24kHz, whereas the oscillators are calculated at 96kHz? I've run into such problems, because tyellow/blue signals are obviously not calculated and updated all at the same time. |
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xav
Joined: Mar 21, 2005 Posts: 164 Location: paris
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Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:53 am Post subject:
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Yes Tim... it seems evident now. The G3 control rate will certainly be 96K. |
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Tim Kleinert
Joined: Mar 12, 2004 Posts: 1148 Location: Zürich, Switzerland
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Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject:
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xav wrote: | Yes Tim... it seems evident now. |
I don't know. It's just a conjecture on my behalf. I didn't try the example patches. I just thought that this also might be a possible cause. I've run into these kinds of problems when using high-precision audiorate stuff in conjunction with controlrate things. The ratio between controlrate and audiorate is 1:4, so the controlrates are updated every fourth sample. It seems that the controlrate processes are dynamically alloted into four groups which are calculated consecutively in a round-robin fashion. So there is no way to know WHEN a specific controlrate event will be calculated within this 4 sample cycle. At least that was my observation. I really ran into nasty problems here and it took me quite a while to figure out what the cause was. That's why my precision algorithms always clock at audiorate throughout.
Quote: | The G3 control rate will certainly be 96K. |
Well, the distinction between control and audio signals is totally against the intention of modular synthesis anyway. That's why I never understood Buchlas deliberate choice of separating audio and control signals on his modular synths. Moog did it the right way, maybe that's the reason the Moog was more successful. I don't know.
On digital modulars, it's just to save calculation power anyway. And as DSPs become more powerful, this will no longer be necessary. There's nothing to gain from it otherwise.
Nevertheless, 24kHz controlrate is still incredible. I don't know any other synth, hard- or software, that comes remotely close to this performance. So let's be happy about this, this is great.
cheers,
t |
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xav
Joined: Mar 21, 2005 Posts: 164 Location: paris
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Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:05 pm Post subject:
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tim wrote: |
Couldn't the problem be connected to the fact that the yellow gate signal is only updated at 24kHz, whereas the oscillators are calculated at 96kHz? |
Maybe a good way to know that would be to run an OSC at control rate (or to use a LFO as an OSC). I cannot do it for the moment.... |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24170 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:20 pm Post subject:
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I was thinking that when the envelope would be triggered from the same yellow signal that syncs the osc ... it should work ok then.
BTW Xavier, you don't need multiple envelopes, you can use Level Multipliers that you control from the envelope module (the Env out, as it labeled on most env. modules), that would at least be a bit cheaper than multiple envelopes. _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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xav
Joined: Mar 21, 2005 Posts: 164 Location: paris
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Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject:
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Blue Hell wrote: |
BTW Xavier, you don't need multiple envelopes, you can use Level Multipliers that you control from the envelope module (the Env out, as it labeled on most env. modules), that would at least be a bit cheaper than multiple envelopes. |
YES!!!! That's it! How didn't imagine that by myself? I gonna patch that way. Thank you very much. |
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G2Psy
Joined: Feb 06, 2009 Posts: 60 Location: Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject:
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As OP of this thread (although it is basically the same issue as xav's thread) I can't help but think that the G2 architecture simply fails with envelopes and control signals. It is not normal or expected to get a pulse or click when a fast envelope modulates a filter or amp. Its just wrong. Sure you can find a work around, but you really shouldn't have to. The only good side to this issue is that many digital synths have this flaw. But the good ones (Virus TI for example) never do this.
Cheers,
B |
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