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Jyoti
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 Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject:
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In terms of feel, here's my sequencer ranking:
TR-808
MC-202
Machine Drum
Monomachine
JX-3P
Numerology on my Macbook Pro
Atari 520STFM using Sequencer One and FSKed to 688
MPC 2500
Renoise on my MB Pro
QY-700
Digital Performer on my Mac Pro
Triton Extreme
Abusive drummer after eleven cans of Red Stripe
Logic Studio on my Mac Pro
These are all things that I've used for more than one track / a short while. There are others, of course, but I haven't used them enough to comment.
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Blue Hell
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject:
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What the ... sorry, I'm a non sequencer person, so probably any explanation will be beyond me but ... hell, what is a sequencer feel, I mean they're all dead   erm I well ... I mean they go boom ta ta all the time ... erm I should say no more I guess 
Ok, I'm safe, behind the chair .. I hope ... let it come ...
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elektro80
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject:
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Some stuff I like:
Early Roland MCs
The Roland CSQs.
The PPG Waveterm
Various analog sequencers like the Q119, but it´s always more fun to use those for the "other" stuff though.
Logic
Hmm...
Numerology is very cool.
The shit inside the NM-1 is cool too. 
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elektro80
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject:
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| Blue Hell wrote: |
Ok, I'm safe, behind the chair .. I hope ... let it come ... |
You might consider to start worrying about stray ice cream trucks?
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Blue Hell
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | Blue Hell wrote: |
Ok, I'm safe, behind the chair .. I hope ... let it come ... |
You might consider to start worrying about stray ice cream trucks? |
No problem, the chair will take care of that  
No problem I'm several truck heights above street level
No choppers ... please 
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elektro80
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Blue Hell
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Only two failures from standard thought screen helmets have been reported since 1998 for people being abducted by aliens themselves. |
Not exactly fool proof is it ... now tell me more about your sequencer feel please?
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elektro80
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject:
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Sequencer feel? I dunno.. Main point is that I manage to use the damned gear for making the music I want to make. Logic is just fine. It can be used for the Arrick modular as well.. and I can even use audio as trig clicks off the RME. Sequencer feel? I really don´t know if I know what that means.
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Jyoti
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject:
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| Blue Hell wrote: | | now tell me more about your sequencer feel please? |
Here's my test:
Program a simple pattern into my Machine Drum, using its internal sounds -> listen to it -> makes my mrs. want to shake her bum, makes me groove.
Program exactly the same pattern into Logic and then trigger the Machine Drum from Logic, again using its internal sounds -> listen to it -> no grooving from me, no dancing from my mrs.
I'm using an AMT-8 which, pre the Apple buy-out, would come up with a little thingy in Logic saying that MIDI timestamping was on. That's now disappeared.... 
Sooo... I now use my Elektron gear and occasionally my MPC to sequence my external gear.
Please bear in mind all the above is entirely subjective and un-scientific. But then, I'm a musician, not a scientist. So I generally go with, if it sounds better, it is better.
(I added that last paragraph from spending too much time on photography forums with blokes endlessly arguing about MTFs rather than actually taking pictures. )
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Jyoti
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: |
Numerology is very cool.
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Yep! Very, very deep, though! Not my go-to 'let's bash something out' sequencer.
I want one of these babies now:
But they've just stopped making them... my gearlust is thwarted! 
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Blue Hell
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject:
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| Jyoti wrote: | Please bear in mind all the above is entirely subjective and un-scientific. But then, I'm a musician, not a scientist. So I generally go with, if it sounds better, it is better.
(I added that last paragraph from spending too much time on photography forums with blokes endlessly arguing about MTFs rather than actually taking pictures. ) |
I'll bear in mind and the bum argument is pretty strong.
Still it surprises me a bit that a thing that should just do what you tell it to do has so much variability .. but as I said before I'm not a sequencer type really .. I mostly make self playing patches and mostly a sequencer will start to bore me within the time it takes to complete such a thing, so I don't spend much time on it really. I know of others who do lovely stuff with it though (& of course of course).
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elektro80
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject:
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The example above is basically about choosing different sound sources?
If these are step sequences then both Logic and that other thing should perform the same.
As for groove and feel, the sound source is where it´s at.
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Jyoti
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | The example above is basically about choosing different sound sources? |
Nope, playing the same sounds (the internal Machine Drum sounds) both times.
| Quote: | | If these are step sequences then both Logic and that other thing should perform the same. |
Not to my ears. You could argue that it's an unfair test as the signal flow in the Machine Drum is:
sequencer -> sounds
whereas in Logic it's:
sequencer -> Core MIDI -> USB -> USB lead -> AMT-8 -> MIDI lead -> Machine Drum MIDI interface -> sounds.
But that's kind of the point. And my dislike of Logic's timing is multiplied the more tracks running concurrently. With a song with 20+ concurrent sequences, it's all over the shop.
Again, this is just my opinion! Not scientific! Please don't hit me!
But in case you think I'm being completely mental, I have company. If you look at the bottom of this page, here's another feller who likes Elektron's timing:
http://www.elektron.se/extras/?sPage=stories&iId=2&iSubId=1
Although I disagree that it's worse than an Atari.
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Jyoti
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject:
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| Blue Hell wrote: | I'll bear in mind and the bum argument is pretty strong.
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Here's exactly how the awful truth was revealed to me...
2005: I'm preparing some versions of album tracks to gig at Cosy Den in Gothenburg. My mrs. comes into the studio while I'm finishing the verse pattern to a song on my Monomachine...
(mrs.) "Oooh, this is good." (starts dancing)
(me) "Naah, it's a simplified version, this is the proper version." (hit play on Logic, as I've been playing the recorded version in the background while copying it.)
(mrs.) "Hmmm... no."
(me) "What do you mean, 'no?'"
(mrs.) "This one doesn't make me want to dance - play the other one again."
(I hit play on the Monomachine)
(mrs. starts dancing again) "The other one sounds like one of those funny MIDI file versions of songs you used to play me!"
(so I stop the Mono, mute tracks in Logic so it's similar to the Monomachine and then start it playing again.)
(mrs.) "Naah, still not as good... "(wanders out of studio.)
Then I thought, oh my god - she's right!
I'd been grooving to the Monomachine and the proper recorded version didn't have the groove.
So... cue at least a year of comparing timings, re-recording beats, lining up audio... it drove me bloody mad!
I've given all that up now. I just use what feels good and makes me want to shake my arse.
The arse knows best.
And I say 'awful truth' because it would be far, far, FAR easier if I could just sequence in Logic. It's quick, simple, flexible. Great for arranging a song.
But... I want a great feel too.
I know posts like these can really offend people so I just want to say, again, if you love Logic or any other DAW sequencer, that's fine, great. Use whatever makes you happy. I may be mental, just ignore me!
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elektro80
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject:
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Drum stuff?
Listen, if the same step pattern sounds more groovy off the Monomachine, wouldn´t that simply means that the MM adds some shuffle of some sort, and Logic does not?
As for massively sequenced stuff off Logic ( which I´m not really doing so I wouldn´t know anyways ), wouldn´t many of the guys using Logic for "orchestral" film scores have been on their asses and out of work if Logic had had serious probs? I dunno.
But, way back I often found that seriously MIDI sequenced stuff often lacks in the timing department due to different and at times not very suitable attacks in the sounds used. For some reason this has generally improved a lot with modern DAWs. People are probably not on recording everything to a stereo audio track off umpteen tracks of midi anymore.
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Jyoti
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | Drum stuff?
Listen, if the same step pattern sounds more groovy off the Monomachine, wouldn´t that simply means that the MM adds some shuffle of some sort, and Logic does not? |
No, not groove. Like the bloke out of Autechre, I don't find Logic to be tight enough. It feels sloppy to me. It feels more out-of-time than MPCs and anything Elektron.
| Quote: | | As for massively sequenced stuff off Logic ( which I´m not really doing so I wouldn´t know anyways ), wouldn´t many of the guys using Logic for "orchestral" film scores have been on their asses and out of work if Logic had had serious probs? I dunno. |
Oh, Logic is fine for any non-crucial timing: strings, pads, maybe even non-funky piano. I just personally don't like it for bass or drums.
| Quote: | | But, way back I often found that seriously MIDI sequenced stuff often lacks in the timing department due to different and at times not very suitable attacks in the sounds used. |
Yeah, I remember an article around '83 or so, I think it was in Electronic Soundmaker. Depeche Mode were unhappy with MIDI timing so they used an oscilloscope to measure the timing of various bits of MIDI versus analogue kit. In the end, their TR-808 was the tightest so they used that to trigger everything!
| Quote: | | For some reason this has generally improved a lot with modern DAWs. People are probably not on recording everything to a stereo audio track off umpteen tracks of midi anymore. |
Ironically, this is almost what I do do now. I sequence externally and then record into Logic, big tape recorder style.
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Blue Hell
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:11 am Post subject:
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| Jyoti wrote: | | I don't find Logic to be tight enough. It feels sloppy to me. It feels more out-of-time than MPCs and anything Elektron. |
That gives the thing a name at least  . Still it's amazing that today's computers don't reserve a tiny bit of their resources for proper timing ... but indeed, they don't.
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Kassen
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:24 am Post subject:
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The computers are fine. Mostly it's the OS's that are at fault.
At least OSX is good for other things, like.... Well, I can't think of anything right now but I'm sure it's good for something.
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:30 am Post subject:
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So how much jitter is really needed to make a plain beat fall apart?
Unless there are some midi data going wild somewhere, a modern DAW on say OS X should handle this just fine. I´d say it´s time for a serious bug hunt. The fact that I´m not at all bothered with jitter in Logic Studio suggests that this is probably not a common problem.
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Jyoti
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:44 am Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | The computers are fine. Mostly it's the OS's that are at fault. |
Exactly! I swear the timing of Logic 5.x and 6.x on my old G4 was tighter than it is now, on my stupidly fast eight-core machine. I wish I'd never upgraded... I was seduced by the promise of faster this and extra that.
Mind you, I could see parameters for MIDI timestamping back in OS9, in Logic's MIDI interface preferences tab. Like I said, that's mysteriously disappeared now...
| Quote: | | At least OSX is good for other things, like.... Well, I can't think of anything right now but I'm sure it's good for something. |
The audio sync is fine (so far) but I'm guessing that's because it's a higher priority both within Logic and OSX / Core Audio. And, as fewer and fewer musicians use externally-sequenced instruments, I'm also guessing MIDI timing will become even less important.
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Jyoti
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:46 am Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | The computers are fine. Mostly it's the OS's that are at fault. |
And another point - Renoise is way tighter than Logic on exactly the same machine. How?? 
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Jyoti
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:52 am Post subject:
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| Blue Hell wrote: |
That gives the thing a name at least . Still it's amazing that today's computers don't reserve a tiny bit of their resources for proper timing ... but indeed, they don't. |
Bear in mind, this is just what a few nutters like me think. I'm sure Apple could pull out timing graphs and plenty of data to show that Logic has better timing than anything ever built.
As with every bit of musical kit, it's subjective experience. Some people love Micro Korgs, some hate them. Neither is wrong or right, however much they argue about oscillator models or whatnot.
I'm perfectly willing to accept that all my timing issues could be fantasy. However, if I prefer sequencing on Elektrons and MPCs, I can't force myself to un-prefer it, to like a feel I don't like in Logic.
So, I'm not on a MIDI slop / timing crusade, peeps should use whatever makes them happy and whatever makes them dance.
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Jyoti
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:56 am Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | So how much jitter is really needed to make a plain beat fall apart?
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Oooh, now this would be a great circuit / plugin to build: something that progressively introduces random timing fluctuations till everything is fubar. And imagine if you could automate it so every bar went from tight to chaos or vice versa?
Put me down for one!
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Kassen
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:07 am Post subject:
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| Jyoti wrote: |
Exactly! I swear the timing of Logic 5.x and 6.x on my old G4 was tighter than it is now, on my stupidly fast eight-core machine. I wish I'd never upgraded... I was seduced by the promise of faster this and extra that.
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Yeah, multi-tasking sounds like a pritty good idea.... except that multi-tasking for timing critical applications is insanely hard.
The idea of Unix (amongst which BSD and hence Darwin and so OSX) is to make sure all users (and processes) get their share of the cpu every once in a while... and that's at direct odds with realtime performance for a single process.
The one thing you could do is petition Apple for a realtime kernel like Linux has.
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Kassen
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:16 am Post subject:
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| Jyoti wrote: |
And another point - Renoise is way tighter than Logic on exactly the same machine. How?? |
Renoise is on OSX as well now? Wow.
I have no idea how they do it but those Renoise people are quite hardcore and trackers have a rich history of being optimised the living daylight out of. Logic on the other hand is by Apple and Apple makes it's money selling larger and larger computers; they'd be stupid to optimise. If they'd optimise you'd still be on your G4 and where's the money in that?
Have you ever seen those graphs showing aliasing in time-stretch algorithems comparing -amongst other platforms- "serious pro DAW" Logic and "Relic of a bygone era" Renoise? Hint; it's not pretty,
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