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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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 Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | it's also known that Mozart felt quite strongly about the issue some time after Back and anounced the wish to kill anyone daring to play his music in equal tempered tuning. |
Could you supply the source for that, Kassen. I've not encountered that before and it is of interest to me.
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Acoustic Interloper
Joined: Jul 07, 2007
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Location: Berks County, PA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject:
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| bachus wrote: | | Kassen wrote: | | it's also known that Mozart felt quite strongly about the issue some time after Back and anounced the wish to kill anyone daring to play his music in equal tempered tuning. |
Could you supply the source for that, Kassen. I've not encountered that before and it is of interest to me. |
That same quote appears here, but the author does not attribute his source. Might actually have to look in a book 
This page seems to do a reasonable job of explaining assorted intonations for us novices.
| Quote: | Well temper was a further development of Meantone intonation, designed to allow use of all the key signatures. It was pioneered by Andreas Werckmeister (1645 - 1706), among others, in the late 17th century. "Well Temper" tamed the wolf, but left varying degrees of "out-of-tuneness" in the more distant keys. This gave rise to the concept of "key colour" - as different keys are out of tune in differing amounts, and in different places, they have different characters.
(For more on "key colour", click here.)
Opponents of equal temper argue that much is lost when Bach or Mozart is performed in equal temperament, as these composers were well acquainted with the different "key colours", and used them deliberately for effect. "Playing Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier in today's equal temperament is like exhibiting Rembrandt paintings with wax paper taped over them", in the words of one scholar. Mozart's music also gains another dimension when played in its original temperament. |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject:
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| Acoustic Interloper wrote: | | bachus wrote: | | Kassen wrote: | | it's also known that Mozart felt quite strongly about the issue some time after Back and anounced the wish to kill anyone daring to play his music in equal tempered tuning. |
Could you supply the source for that, Kassen. I've not encountered that before and it is of interest to me. |
That same quote appears here, but the author does not attribute his source. Might actually have to look in a book
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From the link above
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Another important thing is the equal temperament has been used for only 150 years. |
As I recall from my sources this is approximately correct, ET was essentially unknown and never used before then.
Mozart died 217 years ago.
See the probelm? 
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Acoustic Interloper
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject:
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| bachus wrote: | | See the probelm? |
Thus the question becomes, could Mozart see into the future, or did he in fact invent time travel?
I recently finished reading Musimathics Vol. I, which has a chapter on intonation systems. On page 70 there is this:
| Quote: | | Curiously, this quintessentially Western scale appears to have been first invented in China. in 1596, prince Chu Tsai-yu (or Zhu Zai-You) apparently calculated the degrees of the equal-tempered chromatic scale without benefit of logarithms (references cited in text). However, it evidently did not catch on in China as it did in the West. the idea was apparently put forward first in Europe by Simon Stevin (1548-1620). The theory became widely known through the work of Mersenne (1635). But equal temperament did not become generally established in practice until 1800, first in Germany, later in England and France. |
Mozart died in 1791, so if ET became generally established around 1800, then it's quite possible that he could neither see into the future nor travel in time. He would have said this as ET was taking hold. It would be nice to hear them in their original tunings.
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bachus
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject:
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The idea and mathematical description of equal temperament was around in Mozart's life. In 1781 William Jones in "Physiological Disquisitions" asserted that musicians should try it. The question is, however, was there existent at that time a methodology for tuning in equal temperament. O. H. Jorgensen, in "Tuning..." argues there was not.
From chapter one, "Equal Temperament Was Not Practiced On Pianos in 1885"
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From Ellis's tables we must conclude that equal temperment as we know it was not tuned on pianos during the ninteenth century. |
Mozart never actually heard music played in equal temperament. None the less the quote would be very informative on several counts if it could be verified. As in so many fields things are not as simple as they might appear.
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Low Note
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject:
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The point is that Bach WAS involved in issues of instrument design, which was the main point I was getting at, and I think has been a bit obscured.
To extend that, there is a pretty steady trend in Western music for composers to at least be involved or interested in the development of instruments. Wagner may not have made instruments, but he was also very keen on having instruments created to fit the timbral 'requirements' of his music.
Just before electronic music was a possibility, there was a huge push towards finding new timbres in classical music, too. I never read any formal writing on this, but one of my old teachers used to call Varese an electronic composer before electronics properly existed b/c of his percussion experiments and use of sounds.
As for the temperment issues, I can't find my notes, and honestly I was never totally interested in historically accurate performances. I'm curious about various temperaments just because they're easily manipulated by computers and its a realm that can use a lot more exploration. I'm also more curious than knowledgable.
But this is the anecdote I was thinking, in a not so good telling of it:
| Quote: | | An anecdote, in similar vein, was related by Edward John Hopkins in 1895, reporting a tradition whereby J. S. Bach as auditor of Silbermann's instruments supposedly said "You tune the organ in the manner you please, and I play the organ in the key I please"; following his remark with a Fantasy in A-flat major causing Silbermann to retire to avoid his own "wolf" [2] [6]. Friedrich Wilhelm Marpurg, writing in 1776, related that J. S. Bach had confided his tuning method to a pupil, Kirnberger, who was expressly required to tune all the thirds sharp[3] [7]. |
from: http://www.eunomios.org/contrib/francis1/francis1.html |
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nickmaxwell
Joined: Jun 18, 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject:
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| Low Note wrote: |
Just before electronic music was a possibility, there was a huge push towards finding new timbres in classical music, too. I never read any formal writing on this, but one of my old teachers used to call Varese an electronic composer before electronics properly existed b/c of his percussion experiments and use of sounds.
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That is some pretty fascinating stuff, but I am woefully ignorant of the history of timbre. Can you recommend any good books on the topic?
- Nick |
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Uncle Krunkus
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:00 am Post subject:
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Well I'm almost certain now that I am only interested in equal temperament. These other ones seem like they'd be too antsy pantsy and unpredictable. I like the idea that a piece can be transposed to any key at all and sound exactly the same.  
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Low Note
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:19 am Post subject:
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Have you listened to any of Varese's music? The first obvious one to grab is Ionisation. Its the first piece of Western Classical music written exclusively for percussion instruments. If he wasn't exploiting the different sounds of each, it would probably be dreadfully boring.
He was also one of the first 20th c. composers to bring found objects or unconventional noisemakers into ensembles. Taking the same piece as an example, one of the instruments used is an Air Horn. I think specifically called for are those Air Raid Horns heard during WW II movies.
Lots of traditional instruments can make really cool sounds if you want them to. You just need to be a bit creative in getting them. They're normally classified under "extended techniques," which I always thought was coined by someone who couldn't stand them but was trying to be really polite.
| nickmaxwell wrote: | | Low Note wrote: |
Just before electronic music was a possibility, there was a huge push towards finding new timbres in classical music, too. I never read any formal writing on this, but one of my old teachers used to call Varese an electronic composer before electronics properly existed b/c of his percussion experiments and use of sounds.
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That is some pretty fascinating stuff, but I am woefully ignorant of the history of timbre. Can you recommend any good books on the topic?
- Nick |
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Kassen
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:36 am Post subject:
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| Low Note wrote: | The point is that Bach WAS involved in issues of instrument design, which was the main point I was getting at, and I think has been a bit obscured.
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There I agree.
| Quote: | To extend that, there is a pretty steady trend in Western music for composers to at least be involved or interested in the development of instruments. Wagner may not have made instruments, but he was also very keen on having instruments created to fit the timbral 'requirements' of his music.
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...and not just Western music. Many instruments in non-western music are relatively simple compared to Western ones. I think, but right now I have no sources to back this up, that in many styles of music it's not uncommon for people to build their own instruments according to their own size and ideas on what aspects deserve emphasis.
| Quote: | Just before electronic music was a possibility, there was a huge push towards finding new timbres in classical music, too. I never read any formal writing on this, but one of my old teachers used to call Varese an electronic composer before electronics properly existed b/c of his percussion experiments and use of sounds.
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I think there has indeed been a steady push towards integrating choices or designs of instruments with the composition itself. I see where Stanley is coming from and where his focus lies but I find it hard to deny that if well done a good combination of choices in sound and music can add a lot to a composition. It's hardly the end all be all though.
What hasn't been discussed yet and whiat I find at least as interesting as the sound design itself is modulation mapopings. I hope Stanley will have some thoughts there.
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:37 am Post subject:
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| Low Note wrote: | The point is that Bach WAS involved in issues of instrument design, which was the main point I was getting at, and I think has been a bit obscured.
To extend that, there is a pretty steady trend in Western music for composers to at least be involved or interested in the development of instruments. Wagner may not have made instruments, but he was also very keen on having instruments created to fit the timbral 'requirements' of his music.
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I am not aware that Bach did anymore than specify stop lists for a few organs, something that any high level organist was or is expected to be able to do. AFAIK he was in no way involved with, specifying cut ups, pipe scales, mixture compositions and break points, etc.. If you have and sources contrary to this they would be appreciated. (I am aware that he promoted large bellows.)
As to wagner I am aware only of his somewhat indirect involvement in the creation of the hecklephone though AFAIK he never wrote for it:
| Quote: | | Heckel, whose improved double bassoon had earned the approval of Richard Wagner, stated in his memoirs that the idea of the heckelphone in fact emanated from the latter. |
And of course he was responsible for "his" tuba:
| Quote: | | Wagner was inspired to invent this instrument after a brief visit to Paris in 1853, when he visited the shop of Adolphe Sax, the inventor of the saxophone. Wagner wanted an instrument that could intone the Valhalla motif somberly like a trombone but with a less incisive tone like that of a French horn. |
In short, my reading of music history (which is undoubtedly out of date) leads me to conclude that composers have had only minor involvement and interest in the development of instruments until the 20th century.
Again sources to the contrary would be much appreciated.
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Low Note
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject:
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| bachus wrote: |
I am not aware that Bach did anymore than specify stop lists for a few organs, something that any high level organist was or is expected to be able to do. AFAIK he was in no way involved with, specifying cut ups, pipe scales, mixture compositions and break points, etc.. If you have and sources contrary to this they would be appreciated. (I am aware that he promoted large bellows.)
As to wagner I am aware only of his somewhat indirect involvement in the creation of the hecklephone though AFAIK he never wrote for it:
| Quote: | | Heckel, whose improved double bassoon had earned the approval of Richard Wagner, stated in his memoirs that the idea of the heckelphone in fact emanated from the latter. |
And of course he was responsible for "his" tuba:
| Quote: | | Wagner was inspired to invent this instrument after a brief visit to Paris in 1853, when he visited the shop of Adolphe Sax, the inventor of the saxophone. Wagner wanted an instrument that could intone the Valhalla motif somberly like a trombone but with a less incisive tone like that of a French horn. |
In short, my reading of music history (which is undoubtedly out of date) leads me to conclude that composers have had only minor involvement and interest in the development of instruments until the 20th century.
Again sources to the contrary would be much appreciated. |
I guess I should clarify that I'm not saying composers were very much involved in the actual building of instruments.
My point is that their choice of instruments that make up the nebulous "orchestra" is important because depending on what instruments you include, it can change the character of the entire ensemble. That is, in a sense, a form of sound design.
As for Wagner's instrument choices - he also made use of the bass trumpet. You mentioned the other two instruments I had in mind. Again here, I'm not suggesting he spent time designing the instruments, but it was hi aural image of a certain sound that propelled the creation of instruments.
And no, Bach was not building organs, but a key part of organs, especially during his lifetime, was how they were tuned. Those choices had an impact on the nature of the sound.
I realize I'm using a much more loose interpretation of sound design and instrument building than immediately assumed, but again, the point is that these great composers weren't simply scribbling dots on the page and then transferring the dots to ensemble templates. |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:08 am Post subject:
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| Low Note wrote: | | the point is that these great composers weren't simply scribbling dots on the page and then transferring the dots to ensemble templates. |
But of course. I myself compose by traditional methods mostly in my head and even what I hear there is always expressed with strong elements of timbre and articulation. I think that's actuall hard to avoid.
On the other hand the pedant in me wants to point out important historical exceptions such as Bach's Die Kunst der Fuge. 
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rachmiel
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:54 am Post subject:
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| nickmaxwell wrote: | | because I get just as much out of my duties as a sound designer as I do from being a composer. At the end of the day, I feel far better about my work when the sounds are my own. |
i like to use guided randomization to make unique sounds. if the instrument is randomization-friendly, meaning that there is intelligence built in that makes 'successful' randomizations more likely, randomizing is a fabulous way to get to sonic places you'd NEVER have arrived at manually. and since you can generate random patches hundreds of times more quickly than manual patches, you won't be tempted to keep a mediocre patch just because you've worked hard on it.
have you worked with scanned and/or modal synthesis? if not, check it out!
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klangumsetzer
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:35 am Post subject:
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hi,
regarding bach and tuning systems, see: http://www.fres.ch/bd/content/music/bach.html (in german)
'wol temperirte' bach =/= et, which wasn't invented yet, but its popularity helped et to establish itself as the goto tuning system.
the 'viola pomposa' was most probably designed by bach (he wrote several works for a 'small cello')and he commented a.o. on the 'mechanical qualities' of organs.
best regards
eike
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nickmaxwell
Joined: Jun 18, 2007
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Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject:
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| rachmiel wrote: |
have you worked with scanned and/or modal synthesis? if not, check it out! |
I haven't heard of either technique, but I will definitely read more on these topics. Thanks for the recommendation. I also agree that it can sometimes be a problem when you work hard on a patch only for it to turn out mediocre. That's why I like to keep practicing with patch creation: I learn from my mistakes and have an ever-growing set of tips and tricks to work from, and every time my sounds get more interesting and more aligned with the elusive "ideal" in my mind.
- Nick |
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Stanley Pain
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject:
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interesting tangent re The Well Tempered Clav.
i always thought of it as a bit of a joke... whether Bach intended the title to be or not. that his compositions tempered i.e. tamed/beat into submission, the keyboard. it did not cross my mind that it was the tuning of the instrument that was being referenced, although now it seems obvious. to be honest i don't think i've come across those books since i was 12 and tuning, be it equal temperamant or not had not sunk into my consciousness just yet. being a 'cellist did not help this matter. i used to put my fingers where i damn well liked. a habit i'm pleased to have retained 
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:44 am Post subject:
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| Stanley Pain wrote: | | being a 'cellist did not help this matter. i used to put my fingers where i damn well liked. a habit i'm pleased to have retained |
Well, one's partner should have a say don't you think
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