Low level on sound card

okan · Joined: Feb 16, 2008 Posts: 12 Location: Istanbul, Turkey

Hi,
i've got a G2 engine and RME multiface sound card. When i connect G2's outputs to RME's inputs, input signal level shows such low values around -28, -30 db. i've seen a maximum peak of -18 db in a patch. i am using balanced stereo cables. i expect normally -12 or -6 db including a headroom. -28 db is too much low i think.
Anyone has this issue? What about your peak levels?

Thx..
Okan

blue hell · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject:

Dunno .. I have a switch on my RME thingy that can be set at -10 dB, +4 dB or high gain. It is at +4dB currently and on average I get about the same readings you mention. Sometimes it's more though and the switch set to high gain will occasionally cause clipping, so I don't use that.

I use two G2s, one is playing patches and the other one conditions the signal of the first one, part of that conditioning is using two compressors, one set at medium compression that kicks in on not so loud signals and then another that compresses much more but kicks in at higher signal levels.

Without a compressor it depends very much on the patch used, some are very loud others are very soft, but on average the G2 is not very loud ... except on the damned headphones of course Twisted Evil

Anyway ... apparently I do really need to use 20 to 30 dB of headroom on the RME. And it's not really a problem I think, as it leaves me about 80 .. 90 dB of effective signal to noise margin, which is good enough for me ... well ... way better than I ever had before ... the USB sound interface I use (tascam us122) on my laptop can't even think of touching that.

So I don't really have an issue with it ...

BTW .. the G2 does not have balanced outputs, and I do not use balanced cables.

elektro80 · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject:

Perhaps this is offtopic, but here goes:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

It is common to say that 0dbu on your analog console equals -18dBfs. You are supposed to be working with a lot of headroom when making digital recordings.

Anyways, I guess the table above kinda explains it . Be sure to know which scale you are referring to. That said, it is no disaster that you aren´t able to kick up the level close to 0 dBfs. Actually, it is rather a good thing. ( Uh.. and I´m on the EBU scale here myself. )

Jan, it sounds like you are working the right way. beer

elektro80 · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject:

BTW , I´m on RME as well. Brilliant gear.

blue hell · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject:

The RME has some nasty clipping when it clips, the US122 seems to have some soft clipping, as I can drive it hotter (not hot enough for it to be better than the RME though in S/N, not close even). Anyway, on the US122 I can work with a headroom of 12 dB, about the same figure I needed for the harddisk recorder I used to work with in the past (but that one had a better S/N margin than the us thing, like 95 dB or so I think) .. the RME needs more headroom, but it gives better results than stuff I've used before ... all in all that is .. and I prefer to not have soft clipping on the recorder, when I want distortion I can add it before .. or after .. but the recorder should be clean .. please Very Happy

elektro80 · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject:

Even more offtopic:

It is well known and often hyped how various mythological pieces of analog hardware will introduce pleasing amounts of distortion to a signal when pushed hard.. running a bit on the hot side.. Yes, this is true but it is mindless to push everything way into the hot and spooky zone. The result will be a mix that is muddy and rather without detail. The weird thing here is however that people will for some reason translate the hot way of doing things in the analog domain into how they work with a digital signal. This is not good at all.

blue hell · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject:

or

rather today Wink

elektro80 · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject:

( And now to ze helpful mode )

Anyways, it is quite easy to calibrate recording levels yourself if you know what levels tp aim for. I reckon noobies will appreciate knowing how this is supposed to work. DAWs and whatnot don´t really come with manuals that explain these basics.

Why don´t DAWs come with a 50 page PDF that explains project studio gain management and all things related. This is stuff that every owner of Cubase, Logic, Reason and what have you would really want to know when they start out.

okan · Joined: Feb 16, 2008 Posts: 12 Location: Istanbul, Turkey

Thanks for the fast response time !!! especially electro80 and blue hell! This is my first topic. the graphic is the one i am looking for.

I guess i am also on the EBU scale. So i need some 12-18 dBfs gain. i dont have any good hardware comp yet.(sold a cheap alesis 3630 comp). i have to increase G2's volume in Logic 5.5 and Max/Msp. Vst gainers generally give about 12 db gain. What are you using for leveling?

Thanks again.

elektro80 · Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:06 am Post subject:

What you could do is to get some sort of DI-line driver thingie that can throw in some additional gain. All of these devices will lift the signal to +4dBu balanced and the headroom is usually really good as well.

I think even Behringer still has some pretty decent devices. Shocked

If you take a look at that table above once again, you´ll see that you don´t want to amplify the signal too much. At 0db=-18dbfs you simply don´t need or want the signal to peak much above say -14 to -12 dbfs. And it is just as nice or possibly cooler to step back a few dbhfs as well.

elektro80 · Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:21 am Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:17 am Post subject:

I should add that you might just as well lift the gain in the digital domain instead of using a less than great analog device.

okan · Joined: Feb 16, 2008 Posts: 12 Location: Istanbul, Turkey

Yes! Great help!
You are right. G2 has a lot of space until the the noise-floor.
i am going to use digital softwares to feed gain until i buy a good quality analog drive. i also have another 5-6 sound modules like monomachine, emu procussion...etc. i think to buy an Allen&Heath MixWizard mixer(for live PA, eq and gaining, and for grouping some channels to a sub channel before sending RME's inputs). dont have a mixer yet!
Universal Audio sounds a bit expensive but i'll buy it one day Smile

Thx again!!

Okan

very · Joined: Apr 16, 2008 Posts: 5 Location: New Delhi

wow. this just explained a lot of things to me. Thanks for sharing this elektro80 !

elektro80 · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:34 am Post subject:

We aim to please! beer

BTW.. I mentioned a Behringer DI device in one of my previous posts.

Soon after writing that post I bought the Behringer ULTRA-DI PRO DI800. I needed more DI boxes and I figured since people have been praising the ULTRA-DI PRO DI800 then I could as well try one. I shouldn´t have done that. Sad

It was awful.

The Behringer was not even close to something like this: http://www.radialeng.com/re-products.htm

The Radial stuff is good. The Behringer is an insult. I returned it.

I´ll look into some DIY DI stuff soon I guess. I need to set up some sort of balanced input for my dotcom synth.