Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject:
Nope - I was hoping to use it to get better audio this time around. I'll have to sync it on the video SW. I've been lazy thus far..... _________________ My Site
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 Posts: 178 Location: Huntsville, AL (USA)
Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject:
State Machine wrote:
Johans, I think you get the award for the most excited person on Electro Music ... good to see your enthusiasm
Bill
You don't even know!
I've told a bunch of people about this project - a number of which don't even know what a synthesizer is They think I'm mad crazy!
This project and the Masters of Science of Music Technology at Georgia Tech (gtcmt.com) have got me more excited then I've been in a LONG time. My friends are probably tired of hearing me talk about them!
Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject:
Quote:
This project and the Masters of Science of Music Technology at Georgia Tech (gtcmt.com) have got me more excited then I've been in a LONG time.
Aaron Lanterman's work? What an awesome thing! Man, I'd love to go to school there. He's one guy I always hope to show up around here.... _________________ My Site
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 Posts: 178 Location: Huntsville, AL (USA)
Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject:
Scott Stites wrote:
Aaron Lanterman's work? What an awesome thing! Man, I'd love to go to school there. He's one guy I always hope to show up around here....
Well, I'm not there yet. I just found out about that program. I'm preparing to take the GRE now so I can apply for next fall (a change of gears from the GMAT for a MBA). Hopefully I'll get accepted. I don't want to get an MBA or an MIM now that I found out about this! >THIS< is my calling! Screw getting another business degree (I already have one with a double major in MIS & Economics)
Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject:
Hmmm....with that educational background, you could work your way through the Georgia Tech course by hiring in way up the food chain at Radio Shack Corporate - then you could do us all a favor and knock some heads together and ask them what the hell they were thinking...
Here's a video of unabashed wankery. It's the patch I described earlier, with the TFS controlling the slave, synced oscillator. TFS is also controlling the filter, so when I have two pressure points (two fingeroonies) pressing the ribbon, it opens the filter and raises the pitch of the slave oscillator.
The Klee sequencer A+B output is driving a simple sequence of a sawtooth through a Schmitz Late MS-20 filter and VCA. The B output is controlling the cutoff of the filter. The A output of the Klee is connected to the external modulation input of the Appendage. When the video begins, the external modulation is turned all the way down, so it's not having an effect.
The master gate bus of the Klee is connected to the gate input of the Appendage, and the Appendage is in the Ribbon Gated mode: the Appendage will only capture the ribbon voltage if it is both pressed and the gate is high. This has the effect of turning even continuous slides into discrete notes. When the gate input goes high, and the ribbon is pressed, the voltage is tracked on slide and bend, and the initial voltage is taken, and a gate and trigger are produced. The gate stays high as long as the external gate is high and the ribbon is pressed. When the external gate goes low, bend and slide "hold" and the gate output drops low.
Anyway, the video starts out with the Klee sequence. Then the ribbon is wanked about for a while. Then I turn up the external mod and play with that. Then I turn the external mod back down and flip the LFO driving the Klee (and hence the gate input of the Appendage) up to low audio range, and I turn down the Klee voice. Now the Appendage is not only controlling the VCO and the filter and the sync, but it's also gating at a low audio rate. I flip in reverb and echo, then flip the LFO back to the mid range (where the video starts), turn up the Klee voice, and wank a bit more before it ends.
I recorded it to the D8 while I was making the video and painstakenly synced it up. Pfft - YouTube looks to have put a slight lag on the audio.
Joined: Aug 24, 2008 Posts: 5 Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:03 am Post subject:
I took a break from reading this thread, come back two months later and... WTF?!?! MULTITOUCH?!?! PCB LAYOUTS?!?!
Awesome. I just hope I'm not offline when the PCB order happens... Have you considered some kind of pre-ordering/"send me your email address" kind of thing, or is that too soon?
Impatience is showing, better stop typing now... _________________ I love SIDs
Joined: Apr 17, 2006 Posts: 2810 Location: New York
Audio files: 24
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:22 am Post subject:
Scott,
Love this example of "Ribbon Gated Mode" of operation and TFS. All I have to say is "that patch rocks" and the echo and reverb add a nice element near the end of the composition. The audio rate gated mode added a "creepy" flavor to the timbre and Scott you know how I like "Creepy" compositions as evidence of some of my music I have been sending you. This will just add to my arsenal of tricks I give this video two appendages up !!! One other thing, your playing style is fine man, when you put pressure on the ribbon at the "beat" and release on a beat, it gives it good flow and is in sync with the Klee sequence. Structure is a good thing in this instance.
Prototype PCB Update:
As for the PC board, this one is a challenge as it is only a 2 sided board with very dense, random traces. I should have gone to 4 layers but this would have been cost prohibitive. This is not like laying out simpler "bussed" or repetitive type circuits. Throw in two ground planes (analog and digital) and two voltage buses (V+ and V-) and you see the complexity. However, I am undaunted, and I am nearly done but have about 40 or so traces to lay down. Then I need to look at ground fills around critical areas of the circuit like the sample and hold chips. After this, I check everything against the schematic and green line every trace. The final step is to tidy things up in terms of spacing of vias and traces as one can not violate spacing constraints for manufacturing. If you do, the PCB basically becomes a nice coaster.
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:40 am Post subject:
State Machine wrote:
Prototype PCB Update:
As for the PC board, this one is a challenge as it is only a 2 sided board with very dense, random traces. I should have gone to 4 layers but this would have been cost prohibitive. This is not like laying out simpler "bussed" or repetitive type circuits. Throw in two ground planes (analog and digital) and two voltage buses (V+ and V-) and you see the complexity.
You have my sympathy. I'm going through a similar "experience" laying out my TZ VCO right now. It's not as big a circuit as yours, but I'm running four separate sets of PS lines to keep different sections of the circuit decoupled. Makes running those traces from one section to another real interesting. Oh, and I'm also constrained by having four pots on the board. Probably at the end you will be able to look around and find many ways to rearrange things to make the layout cleaner. Keep it up -- it's a great project.
Joined: Mar 22, 2005 Posts: 363 Location: Boston
Audio files: 1
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject:
wow--another great video! In the long build up before you entered and started playing, I was starting to hope you'd come in wearing a gold cape, Rick Wakeman-style!
Joined: Apr 17, 2006 Posts: 2810 Location: New York
Audio files: 24
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject:
Quote:
You have my sympathy. I'm going through a similar "experience" laying out my TZ VCO right now. It's not as big a circuit as yours, but I'm running four separate sets of PS lines to keep different sections of the circuit decoupled. Makes running those traces from one section to another real interesting. Oh, and I'm also constrained by having four pots on the board. Probably at the end you will be able to look around and find many ways to rearrange things to make the layout cleaner. Keep it up -- it's a great project.
Ian, wow, OK I am not alone here. Laying out the analog stuff is like laying out random logic. It tends to meander and you can't really help it. I figure it this way, the randomness may actually be a good thing as it will keep things from getting coupled into more critical areas of the circuit.
I have been dropping the smallest "vias" the software will allow so I can run my traces. All this while making sure I am not in any "spacing" violation.
It funny sometimes Ian. It will take 15 or 20 minutes to lay down one trace and others will take a few seconds. It's really time to invest in the big guns and get a good auto router (Proteus, eagle, or Pulse). I have outgrown the "Express PCB" stuff in a big way. Having no auto route, no built in checks such as design rule violation and crossed nets, it's really very bare bones. I have even seen free software that has more features.
So many to choose from but the ones in RED are three that are serious candidates:
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:50 am Post subject:
State Machine wrote:
It will take 15 or 20 minutes to lay down one trace and others will take a few seconds. It's really time to invest in the big guns and get a good auto router (Proteus, eagle, or Pulse). I have outgrown the "Express PCB" stuff in a big way. Having no auto route, no built in checks such as design rule violation and crossed nets, it's really very bare bones. I have even seen free software that has more features.
Well, I'm still a noob at board layout. The pros say it takes a whole career to get good at it. Everything I've heard indicates that autorouters never work very well. I use the FreePCB layout program, which works reasonably well. It works with an external autorouter and can import a netlist from any capture program, but I use it totally freestyle -- all manual entry. The ratsnest from importing a netlist was too hard for my poor brain to untangle. (Prefer to make my own tangle.) Anyway, this software has a number of tools for checking design rules, looking for unrouted connections, crosses, etc., that seem to work fine. I can't imagine not having them, actually.
Joined: Apr 17, 2006 Posts: 2810 Location: New York
Audio files: 24
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Well, I'm still a noob at board layout. The pros say it takes a whole career to get good at it.
Me as well Ian For the types of boards I have been designing (low speed analog and MCU's running at up to 40 MHz), the layout is not as critical a say a board that has high speed digital (0.5 GHz frequencies) or LDVS running at GigaBit speeds. The challenge comes into play when you have to design boards to "transmission line" standards. Low level logic signals at say 2.5V running at high speed becomes a challenge.
Quote:
Everything I've heard indicates that autorouters never work very well.
Yes, I agree and most complex boards will get you about 90% there in terms of the total traces it needs to route with the rest leaving you have to route manually. Sometimes you may have to "rip up" a trace run to optimize things, this I know. Is it that they (auto routers) are accused of not working well because of this or do they just seem to create errors (cross traces, violate spacing or trace width)? Blatant type shit. I happen to think it may be more the former? If so, I can live with that as the auto router will still save me a bunch of time rather than manually noodling traces around the workspace. I am usually on the schematic capture side of the fence at work so I really don't know.
Quote:
I use the FreePCB layout program, which works reasonably well. It works with an external autorouter and can import a netlist from any capture program, but I use it totally freestyle -- all manual entry.
OK yes, external one is FREE as mentioned on the website:
The web-based version of the router is free.
It communicates with host PCB design systems via the standard Specctra DSN interface. There exists also an interface to Cadsoft-Eagle.
Hmm, works with Eagle design files to ..... That may be interesting since Eagle places some very big limitations on the board size"and amount of layers unless you shell out wads of "cashola"
Quote:
The ratsnest from importing a netlist was too hard for my poor brain to untangle. (Prefer to make my own tangle.) Anyway, this software has a number of tools for checking design rules, looking for unrouted connections, crosses, etc., that seem to work fine. I can't imagine not having them, actually.
Nice tools to have and nope, the EXPRESS PCB does not do any checking as far as I know. The help documents just say, print out each layer and check yourself .... kind of a joke .... The thing I do like about it is that it does not use a "rats nest" to highlight the connections but rather uses a sort of connection tool. For example, if I link the PCB layout to the parent schematics net list, each point I click on in the layout, after declaring the part designations, blue dots will appear everywhere the trace must be routed. Then you go to it and start routing your ass off. It's analogous to a game of checkers or chess. As the game goes on, the moves take more and more time to complete. It's like solving a puzzle really
Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:12 am Post subject:
Cape? Hell, I want that chair!!
Yeup - that Express PCB SW sure makes checking a layout a b*tch. It's really lacking in that regard. I do love their PCBs, though, and they make ordering the things and figuring out how much they're going to cost really easy. But, that PCB SW - feel for ya, Bill.
I love their schematic SW. I just wish they'd make checking that everything is hooked up on the netlist in that PCB program easier. _________________ My Site
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject:
State Machine wrote:
For the types of boards I have been designing (low speed analog and MCU's running at up to 40 MHz), the layout is not as critical as say a board that has high speed digital (0.5 GHz frequencies) or LDVS running at GigaBit speeds.
True enough, but a Saw VCO with a fast reset (15V in <1us) can throw some nasty hash around. Also, in my breadboard version, the modulation signal was causing a weak syncing, probably from some ground loop or PS coupling. So even this kind of mixed signal application takes some care. I should have boards by the weekend, so we shall see how I did.
Hopefully the very slow speeds of your controller circuit will not have this kind of problem, but watch out for 60Hz pickup (It's everywhere, it's everywhere!).
Quote:
Is it that they (auto routers) are accused of not working well because of this or do they just seem to create errors (cross traces, violate spacing or trace width)?
Not errors, just very messy and inefficient. And of course they don't know about ground loops, AC pickup, etc.
I was wondering what you guys would think of dividing the PCB into two PCBs. The first one would be a very small PCB and contain the clock and a S/H which could be used for CV from a simple "Y" ribbon control. The second one would add the gating, trigger, dual CV, and all the other cool stuff for the 500mm "X" control.
For a system you would use both boards on the "X" controller and only the small board for multiple small ribbon "Y" controllers.
This would cut down on the complexity of the single large PCB and make small "Y" or circular controllers simple and inexpensive. They all could share the same clock circuit.
Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject:
@ Ian: Maximon! He looks pretty good in the chair, but he needs a cape.
@THeff: That's some food for thought there, indeed. What you describe is sort of the Appendage Lite or Appendage Junior or whatever it would be called. Outfitting a second board for it for the other stuff...hmmm. _________________ My Site
NO!!!!! Don't let that stop you guys! (Scott J. I'll buy more of your PCB's to make up for it ) _________________ Don't feed me Indian, you WILL regret it!
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject:
johans121 wrote:
NO!!!!! Don't let that stop you guys!
Well, I certainly wasn't trying to discourage anyone, and I never had any idea that it would. Scott's device is unique.
The features that jumped out at me were (1) touch control (how do they do it?) and (2) an option to turn off the S/H.
If I ever decide to actually make a ribbon controller for myself, it will be different from either of these. It would probably have a separate control surface for pressure and velocity, similar to a violin bow.
Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject:
No, hadn't seen that before! The Doepfer R2M didn't make me think doing the Appendage was pointless, so this wouldn't discourage me any more than the existence of sequencers discouraged me from doing the Klee. This is an extension, enhancement and improvement of the Doepfer approach, whereas the Appendage is aimed in a different direction. I like Scott's work - it looks like a spiffy device.
Other than being ribbon controllers, they're really two different concepts. There are a number of differences that make them two distinctly different instruments.
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 Posts: 178 Location: Huntsville, AL (USA)
Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject:
Scott Stites wrote:
The Doepfer R2M didn't make me think doing the Appendage was pointless, so this wouldn't discourage me any more than the existence of sequencers discouraged me from doing the Klee.
Whew!
*wiping sweat from forehead & sideburns & bridge of nose*
I really didn't think it would discourage you, I was just being dramatic! _________________ Don't feed me Indian, you WILL regret it!
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They think I'm mad crazy!
I give this video two appendages up !!! One other thing, your playing style is fine man, when you put pressure on the ribbon at the "beat" and release on a beat, it gives it good flow and is in sync with the Klee sequence. Structure is a good thing in this instance.
