simplicity vs complexity

[abreaktor]

hello all,

since i am quite fresh on the subject of composing and have somewhat limited abilities in your field of expertise - feel free to frown upon my shenanigans and/or make fun of me.

i never had any education in music, all i have ever done was strictly learning by doing with very little secondary literature and nearly no lectoring or tutoring. strangely enough, around 10 years ago i discovered my love for bebop jazz and even tried to "resuscitate" several improvisations by buying bill evans transcriptions on ebay (the pianist). i consider this the nost complex music imaginable, even if you count out the fact that they do it on-the-fly.

otoh, i really really enjoy very simple songs, and i mean, SIMPLE. a good example for this is "rip" from the new portishead album - primarily simple in melodic structure and "syncopation". i really love this analogue tritonus repeating itself... it touches some layer in me that is not reached by jazz.

so, i restarted "composing" music (i quoted this because i can imagine many of you full-time musicians might find it funny that a newcomer uses this word), took the first hurdles and really had a good time in programming beats and drones. since this is a development, my approach to this seems to change, and i now feel kinda compelled to add too much to my ideas, which does them no good. an example: i made a drumtrack with just kick, snare and 1 tom with the goal to give it as much drive and rhythm as possible (its 4/4, a really basic pattern, and i only succeeded by gently displacing signals, note lengthes, accents) - and yeah, it grooved! then i added stuff, and lost it. same goes for melodies/pads. i really love the simple things and end up cluttering up the daw with crap noone needs.

i guess there is some part in me that just says "nay" to the simple things. since i am very intellectual in my general approach to things, i might have lost occams razor somewhere on the way... so my questions are:

- can "real" musicians accept simple structures that just do what they are supposed to do? can you give me examples on this?

- what can i do to avoid my over-eager brain to restructure simple but good things? (it works quite well in my writing, so it might just be a matter of time...)

- did you have similar experiences? how did you deal with them? (i thought about looking for "real-life" feedback; but its kinda hard to find here without exposing my very unfinished music to audiences i would rather impress with something a 100%... never get a 2nd chance for a first impression etc)

much text, but hopefully i did make my problem clear and avoided to bore the heck outta you.

thank you in advance for your time! alex

[seraph]

[abreaktor]

thats exactly my point. my heart says "yes! great!" and my head cant accept it. strange. i dont know exactly how to overcome it, but i will just start simple and try to keep it. or, i take something complex and break it down. hell, when it comes to music i am an "idiot savant", so that should not be too hard. ill try and not get distracted by anything. OOoooh something shiny!

[elektro80]

I guess asking what complexity means here might be a good start.

As for simple vs. say detail vs. complexity, it is quite possible to have what you might call a highly simple musical scheme filled with details that gives the impression of complexity. And you can have very complex musical pieces written for only one instrument. That is all fine, but that still leaves us to define the terms in meaningful ways.

.

[abreaktor]

damn. i hoped that youd catch my drift intuitively. maybe a good idea would start glitching versus straight rhythms that dont vary except for the occsional fill - some glitches are very funky, but most stuff is like showing off one's protools or whatever of them newfangled toys kids use nowadays

or, a monophone hook that has not too much movement over the track but manages to stay interesting through filter, effects and sidechaining/vocoding/resonating etc.

anyway, this evening i put together the beginning of a track which consists of a flat 4/4 without any percussion or snares at all, a very repetitive sequence made from a layered absynth patch, and vocals that i use as "hook" (grain delayed, resonated, compressed) in the first few bars and then gradually shift them to "real" speech - you dont even guess its a voice until minute 1. i made a highly melodic arpeggio (had to play it in by hand, i have no clue how those arpeggiators work... on my computer keyboard) - and just omitted it. that was fun doing.. a)recording and b) deleting it =)

that was helpful. i will continue with this.

[dewdrop_world]

Simplicity is all mental, of course. Maybe "spiritual" is too vague or fuzzy-headed New Agey, but I do think it's a factor. I struggle with the same urge toward complexity that you speak of, and (at least for myself) I recognize that the root of it is anxiety. What if it's boring? What if it's not sophisticated or clever enough? What if people think it's dumb? How can I show people that I really am awfully smart and well trained and all that?

Compositional tricks, or rules of thumb for the creative process, aren't the antidote for that anxiety. I feel (again, speaking just for myself) that the only real antidote is silence -- some quiet time during the day to get familiar with whatever part of you drives you to musical complexity, and get to know it inside out so that it doesn't control you. Quiet time also sharpens musical intuition, because it makes it easier to hear that little voice that says "that isn't quite right" or "not sure about that direction you're taking there," or "Yes!!!!! That's it!"

I suppose I bring spirituality into it because being simple is a leap of faith, and it takes tremendous courage in a non-simple world. Spiritual practices (by which I don't mean today's corrupted organized religions) help with the trust needed to do something different from what you've always done, and build courage.

I don't take enough quiet time for myself... but what little I do helps me immeasurably. (And my music is still too complex.)

James

[Uncle Krunkus]

You could try adding four ideas and then, upon reflection, deleting three. Then do it again, add four ideas, have a listen, and delete three. This way, you get to exorcise the urge to add way too much, plus, the parts which are deleted have added to the process, and therefore are not wasted, just used as stepping stones. You'll also get to experience the same piece in many ways.
I once heard a quote which was something like;
"A creative person makes many things,
An artist knows what to throw away."

[abreaktor]

thanks. btw, amazing nickname. yes, most ideas are utter crap. what i do now with this song, is further reduction. the idea with layering 4 things and cutting 3 of them is great... i have never come up with that. i will think this through, since it is applicable on a lot of levels.

oh, obama won! great. see... even germans stay up at night to watch this. (hopefully i didnt offend any republicans).

thanks for the input. that is enormously helpful - i gladly welcome any input from you guys and girls.

edit: wth! yesterday ddw's post didnt show up. thanks for your input, james. i used music when i went out to watch things and people to "quantize" my impressions, which worked fairly well in urban environments (did this for writing), kind of like a filter, a structured layer of noise or anti-nose that blocked out distractions. didnt work at all when i went into the nature or was in town late at night/early in the morning.

so, i do use silence quite often. its a luxury, since you get virtually spammed with noise and music whenever you go out (and, if you stay in, your family takes a lot of time and attention).... but i guess it is a really good idea to pull the plug from time to time. what worked best was walking in silence and just listening what comes up in my thoughts, sometimes dotting down things or making notes on a dictaphone. i will try that.

[Rykhaard]

The title of this thread brought to my mind a philosophy that I coined a few years ago: "Simplicity = Complexity / Complexity = Simplicity". Take it as you wish.

I came from the world of writing extremely simple tunes, to outlandishly hugely orchestrated Progressive Industrial pieces, with far more pieces of instrumentation working together as well as against each other, that almost seem to require a dual personality to digest.

And just about around the corner, I'm coming back to composing simple pieces almost entirely on my modular which is 'almost there'. Purposely LIMITING myself to that, for composition.

Through all of my years of complex composition though, I believe I caught at least 1 light: as simple as something may be, so complex are it's possibilities! And the easiest way that I've found to recognize it and settle with it rather than crafting it further is my 'gut' / 'instinct' / 'intuitive feeling' / 'immediacy in recognition' / going no further once that 'feeling' hits you.

Another way to put it - let your 'insides' flow out, however they do - through your fingers; from your mind through whichever extremity, controlling whatever he has at the moment.

Yet another angle - we've available to us, well BEYOND an avalanche of editing abilities through every sonic / aural avenue. Another way that we can look at that - take Uncle Krukus' upper suggestion and apply it to the tools that you have available:

- your melody and / or sound
- add 4 changes to it (be it: effect; addition to it; what have you)
* save your progress
- throw 3 of them away
- add 4 changes to it
* save your progress
- throw 3 of them away
- add 4 changes to it
* save your progress
- throw 3 of them away
- ad nauseum

More importantly than seeing what has occurred through the progress though: what have you LEARNED through the progress.

Once that has been realized - Save the final result and then toss it ALL away. Start over from scratch.

With having saved each point through, there're moments to reflect upon - more'n likely inspiring you down completely new avenues whether they be simplicity, or complexity.

[abreaktor]

is that "/" in "Simplicity = Complexity / Complexity = Simplicity" just a slash or the mathematical symbol for division? anyway, either one could make sense, tho with that division its like a boxing match between luhmann and deleuze

by listening through some of your music, it becomes clear that your idea can hold its water. it is easy to discover complex elements in a simple structure and vice versa; sometimes our inherent filters wont let us do so. so i guess sometimes it is really ok to KEEP an idea to embrace this duality wholesale^^

this is great stuff.

[abreaktor]

well, i did something. i took all the ideas and clips done from them and structured them into a new track. so, they are not available any more, since i do not use 1 clip twice. and somehow i even like that song. it has a nice level of randomness (that was a hell of a lot of work) and takes quite a turn after 1:30 without falling apart.

so, i still have some 3 very simple tracks in the pipeline and i will use all upcoming ideas in another track. i hate to throw away things, but that may change... if something does not turn out ok, i normally dont even bother with saving and just discard it.

anyway, this works well on a lot of levels... a) i am not restrained to doing just one sort of track, b) those tracks done from clips enable me to do just very random things, c) and i learn a lot by doing this (basic stuff, and how you per- and abuse this basic stuff to get something new out of it).

[Rykhaard]

With all the speak of simplicity - after 3+ years of reading about count dividers (/2, /3, /5 etc.) I FINALLY fully realized tonight at work - HOW to make Septuplets. It took me this many years for the light bulb to finally light up, above my head.

If you're dividing a count by 7, every time it repeats the 7 counts - is a beat. A beat, with 7 divisions; hence, septuplets! I've wanted to work with /5, /7, /9, /11 and /13 for years and years, since first hearing Frank Zappa doing divisions by 7.

But - with simplicity at the same time. Now - (within the next few weeks actually) to start making some music with septuplets in a 5/4 or 5/8 time signature.

I can't WAIT! Even the 'feel' (as imagined' of /5, has such a strong shuffle and Celtic 'feel' to it. Will love that one too.

[abreaktor]

i fear you.




and really look forward to a "simple" song with septuplets in 5/8 time


anyway, this song i put together... it really grows on me. a little feedback would be nice - since it was great fun to put it together. it may be simple for you masterbrains from space who can possibly read my mind while i write this, but it was the most compex thing i did so far in ableton. www.soundcloud.com/abreaktor/random-sex-1

[lebenspuls]

interesting discussion!! We are very familiar with the rational aspect of our mind. We analyze, conceptualize, compare, ... but there is another domain of the mind with which we are not so familiar. We can call it intuition or even connect it to the spiritual domain... it stays difficult to approach in a comprehensible, self-conscious way. But there is a kind of inner awareness, a sense of "rightness", a "feeling" which is beyond "emotional reaction", which is perhaps not only the "pre-stage" to the "safe "analyzing mind. But as our society doesn't value this very much it isn't so well researched;
In my work I discovered that we can research this part of our mind without the need to lean on new-age philosophy or indulge in pre-rational emotional subjectivity. There is a wealth of simple technics which can help us to relate to this so often neglected part of our mind:
breathing, relaxation and a sense of inner self-appreciation are important "ingredients" to tune into this "sensitive feeling". But then we have to dare to act directly from this state, wether we throw something away or add something, and then "breath-feel-think" again...
I listened to your music, and although I don't like the scratchy noise I feel a certain "rightness". Everything is at his place and although there are for sure more possibilities it expresses already a certain finality...
Thank you for the the inspiration!

[kara]

Interesting points of view here.
For myself, I have a rather simple approach when I compose. I'm performing live as a duo, I play myself 2 keyboards (Fusion & G2X) and my partner plays a windcontroller. Everything that I write is made in function that we are able to play it live. The only aspect that is sequenced in our songs are the drum part.
This obviously gives a certain limit to the songs that I write, after all I have only 2 hands, and my partner can only play one windcontroller

k

[abreaktor]

thank you, lebenspuls and kara, for your input! see, where i am right now, i am far from being that refined (and confined) like many musicians seem to be. i think i found a good "collaborator", which is immensely helpful in my state, and i will see where it goes from here. right now, i "channel" this need for complexity into the more technical aspects of the songs and try to keep structures simple.

i am really depending on feedback. it is so damn hard to substract oneself when listening to your own music. hopefully, that will change... there *might* be a huge difference between the emotion you had when doing that thing and what some guy or girl hears who has no clue who the hell you are. you people are immensely helpful, thanks a lot for that. alsoplustoo, i dont know certain compository techniques that allow musicians to push some "triggers" at the right time to get what they want. i barely think at all when i do my stuff.

i really cant understand people who did their first 2 tracks and immediately go out and buy stuff for 10 grand.... honestly, the possibilities of my DAW alone scare me. its amazing.... so i will pester you people with requests for feedback in the months to come. yes, thats the kind of greedy s.o.b. that i am =)

thank you all and have a great day! alex

[seraph]

[kijjaz]

[abreaktor]

paul mccartney? heh. didnt think of that one. i relaxed my ears with some late nick cave, neubauten and tom waits. on another note: i really got interested in a certain randomness in music. everyone who plays an instrument may agree with me that it is really hard if not impossible to make it sound exactly the same at two different times. so, i did a new track, which originally started out as something more uptempo, perhaps even for the dancefloor. the "hook" was a dual-hit tom that i kicked through every available effect.. everything was going ok until i had the idea to fire up the free vst-synth "crystal".

i dont even know what it does exactly, but i built me a little sequence consisting of 2 oscillators, noise and some weird ring/fm modulation i cant exactly wrap my head around (fm seems to be very difficult to understand and handle, but judging from the sounds its much more interesting than substractive sounds). so, made a midi track, mapped my controllers and started rolling. the results were extremely unpredictable, since i have no clue of FM and mapped "wave sequence" and "mogrify" etc PLUS crystal lagged extremely behind, some 2-5 seconds. i am unable to say if this randomness is ok or just pure crap - but i am tempted to keep it that random.... all that kept my drive for complicating things at bay.

i put it on virb, www.virb.com/abreaktor . its called "things will go wrong"... eventually.

a nice day to y'all!

[abreaktor]

no edit, because this deserves an own post.

what completely blew my mind (and all things too complex aside with it) was:

klezmer.

just try it, i dont know why it came to my mind, i have an old klezmer cd lying around. take alook:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4G-aNxMplU&feature=related


Un az der rebe redt
Shvaygn ale khasidim!

[Rykhaard]

[glow worm]

A fascinating thread and one that's really got me thinking, although I've yet to come up with any real answers

[seraph]

[abreaktor]

amazing input, people!

well, i can certainly say, that it takes a LOT more time now for me to finish a track. THANK YOU! just kidding

and, since i am impatient, i tend to upload them too fast. otoh, its cool to see different versions and some form of "darwinism" going on in the music. well, it wont take long until i have formed some network of people who can give me direct feedback. damn... that was much easier when i played in a punk band in school. but, when i think about it, at that time everything was "scheisse"

[JCMastering]

I think you have partly recognized the problem when you say "i now feel kinda compelled to add too much to my ideas, which does them no good". So don't.

The other part of the problem might be "i would rather impress with something a 100%". Focus on what you are trying to communicate and eliminate that which detracts from effectively illustrating your thoughts. Serve the song , not your ego.

Choose the right musicians for the song and leave them room to contribute creatively. Simple ideas in the hands of good musicians will quickly rise in sophisticated (read quality) complexity while delivering a clear message.