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GI-20 "The Best Guitar-MIDI Interface on the Planet", hmm...
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ReaktorFreak



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:37 am    Post subject: GI-20 "The Best Guitar-MIDI Interface on the Planet", hmm... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just curious about the GI-20 slogan on Roland site, is it really that good ? Or is it just for fooling guitarist again like the previous MIDI guitar..
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well I wouldn't believe it myself!

Go for a Axon AX100 mkii if your going to go for anything.

Cheers

Andy
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ReaktorFreak



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, i've heard Axon is the fastest due to its neural network thing.. Roland should concentrate more on the development of their MIDI guitar instead of creating such a ridiculous slogan like that.
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Oskar



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mebbe they've sent a GI-20 to Saturn? In which case it would be that planet's best Guitar-to-MIDI interface...
Oh, I feel a rant on advertisers' and manufacturers' hyperbole, please stop me! Twisted Evil

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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Faster and more accurate but still a bind to play!

It does manage muting and harmonics which the rolands have never been able to do properly.
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Stream Operator


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oskar wrote:
Mebbe they've sent a GI-20 to Saturn? In which case it would be that planet's best Guitar-to-MIDI interface...
Oh, I feel a rant on advertisers' and manufacturers' hyperbole, please stop me! Twisted Evil


Heh, good joke. Rant! Rant!

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ReaktorFreak



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oskar wrote:
Mebbe they've sent a GI-20 to Saturn? In which case it would be that planet's best Guitar-to-MIDI interface...
Oh, I feel a rant on advertisers' and manufacturers' hyperbole, please stop me! Twisted Evil


Good one Laughing ! It's still not clear which planet they are referring to. I assume GI-20 is just GI-10's new face, without the mic/instrument input, that's been proved not as useful as it's meant to be..

But VG-99 probably does have a much better MIDI Out, doesn't it ?

BobTheDog wrote:
Faster and more accurate but still a bind to play!

It does manage muting and harmonics which the rolands have never been able to do properly.


Can it handle rapid picking ?
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ReaktorFreak wrote:

But VG-99 probably does have a much better MIDI Out, doesn't it ?


No its the same technology I think.


ReaktorFreak wrote:

Can it handle rapid picking ?


Yep as long as you play clean with a pick, fast hammerons and pulloffs can confuse it, after a while you learn to pick rather than do this.

I must admit I love the Axon it is a fantastic device, there are plenty of parameters to set it up to your playing style or multiple playing styles. Its a neat device but it will not allow you to play a synth like you play a guitar due to midi limitations.

I mostly use it to get ideas into Logic or Live and then clean them up to control synths. If I could play keyboards I wouldn't use it so much.

I have never played live with it (because I don't play live anymore Sad ) But I have played live with a GR33 which was frightening, you have to be spot on or it all sounds shit.
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Oskar



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:

I have never played live with it (because I don't play live anymore Sad ) But I have played live with a GR33 which was frightening, you have to be spot on or it all sounds shit.


My very good friend Andreas Aase is a member of Tom's Diner, brainchild of respected acoustic guitarist Tom Steinar Lund, who performs live with a Godin Multiac nylon strung job. He sets it up thusly:
Piezo "acoustic" sound via DI to a submixer he carries with him. The GK signal goes to a GR33 set to respond only to signals from the two lowest strings, set up to a double bass sound.
His finger picking is obviously top notch, so that helps with the triggering, but he sure gets some fantastic sounds from his setup. Every time I hear him play I think "Yikes! Who needs the band?!"
Anyone else tried using a nylon strung guitar as source for guitar-to-midi trigging?


http://www.andreasaase.com/


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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oskar wrote:

Anyone else tried using a nylon strung guitar as source for guitar-to-midi trigging?


Yep I use my Godin Nylon, works pretty well as you play it different to en electric.
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Oskar



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's probably because nylon strung guitars tend to have a more even "overtone response," wouldn't you think?
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well I wouldn't think that as I have no idea what you are talking about Smile

I am willing to learn though....
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Oskar



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I couldn't back my previous claim with scientific fact, but nylon strung guitars tend to be more predictable, in that they don't give off all the overtones, fret buzzes, squeaks and whatnot that steel strung guitars, acoustic OR electric, do.
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aha I see.
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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oskar wrote:

Anyone else tried using a nylon strung guitar as source for guitar-to-midi trigging?


Not me, but I've seen/heard the following do it live without any apparent problems:

Ralph Towner
John McLaughlin
Steve Oliver

Your friend sounds really good!

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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BTW, Lund looks like The Dude from "The Big Lebowski" Wink
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Oskar



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GovernorSilver wrote:
BTW, Lund looks like The Dude from "The Big Lebowski" Wink


He DOES, doesn't he? An apt comparison in some ways, as this guy is an affable man-bear who enjoys life and music. And, just The Big Lebowski, AND a bear, DON'T GET HIM RILED! he'll suffer fools gladly, up to a point, but I've seen him bite people's heads off, and well deserved it was too. Some gals think that just because a guy is big and affable gives you carte blanche to say whatever comes into your pretty, blonde airhead...

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Oskar



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GovernorSilver wrote:
Oskar wrote:

Anyone else tried using a nylon strung guitar as source for guitar-to-midi trigging?


Not me, but I've seen/heard the following do it live without any apparent problems:

Ralph Towner
John McLaughlin
Steve Oliver

Your friend sounds really good!


ALL my friends sound good! Cool

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ReaktorFreak



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:
ReaktorFreak wrote:

But VG-99 probably does have a much better MIDI Out, doesn't it ?


No its the same technology I think.

I must admit I love the Axon it is a fantastic device, there are plenty of parameters to set it up to your playing style or multiple playing styles. Its a neat device but it will not allow you to play a synth like you play a guitar due to midi limitations.


Sad So they really move into non-MIDI tracking like the old GR-300 days.. It's kinda 'cheating' i guess since it's easier to implement while offers more freedom in playing style. They invent MIDI but they've given up implementing it for guitar Razz

MIDI is really discouraging for guitarist, it ridiculously expect a guitar to act like a keyboard..

Oskar wrote:
I couldn't back my previous claim with scientific fact, but nylon strung guitars tend to be more predictable, in that they don't give off all the overtones, fret buzzes, squeaks and whatnot that steel strung guitars, acoustic OR electric, do.


With the strong fundamental, nylon string doesn't confuse the pitch detection circuit i think. Steel string has a brighter tone which means sometimes the overtones are louder than the fundamentals..
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ReaktorFreak wrote:

MIDI is really discouraging for guitarist, it ridiculously expect a guitar to act like a keyboard..


'Splain this to me please: isn't MIDI just notes? Computer codes for notes? Don't you lose the essence of the guitar, the subtle sounds of the fingering and picking if you distill it down to codes of notes? I just don't understand MIDI, and as a new musician of 1.5 year I really should. 'Splain it please!

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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well for a decent overview look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_MIDI_1.0_Protocol

At a simple level midi deals with notes on and offs, Pitch-bend and aftertouch.
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ReaktorFreak



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Inventor wrote:
'Splain this to me please: isn't MIDI just notes? Computer codes for notes? Don't you lose the essence of the guitar, the subtle sounds of the fingering and picking if you distill it down to codes of notes? I just don't understand MIDI, and as a new musician of 1.5 year I really should. 'Splain it please!


Yes, it is computer codes for notes, but the way they made it really makes it difficult for guitarist to play naturally when dealing with it (even simple hammer-ons cannot be interpreted correctly), so a lot of playing style has to be sacrificed in order to minimize the error potential. That's what i mean with "it ridiculously expect a guitar to act like a keyboard..", because it's a key-oriented language, which i think kinda unfair for guitar player.

But MIDI is supported by almost every device such as synths, so with MIDI you get access to the vast range of sounds from those device, it clearly shows the advantages. The main idea is not to perfectly transform every aspect from guitar playing, but rather just using the guitar as a controller to trigger those MIDI device, pretty much like a keyboard..
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cbm



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Inventor wrote:
'Splain this to me please: isn't MIDI just notes? Computer codes for notes? Don't you lose the essence of the guitar, the subtle sounds of the fingering and picking if you distill it down to codes of notes?


I'm not trying to be facetious when I ask "What's a note?"

Part of what makes instruments different from each other is that the sound is excited in very different ways. MIDI, for better or worse (ok... worse) is modeled exclusively on the way a piano works. You play a note by striking a key, and when you release it, the note goes away. There's not much you can do on a piano to change a note after you strike it.

Many other classes of instrument behave radically differently from this model, and can be very expressive using the techniques appropriate to that instrument (e.g. glissandos, hammer-ons, pull-offs, flutter-tonguing, etc). Non-percussive instruments like bowed string instruments, and breath-based instruments (brass or winds) have their specific idiosyncrasies that are difficult to express over MIDI.

On a guitar, once you pluck a note you can wiggle the pitch of that note independently of any other notes that may be sounding. You can slide the note to a new pitch, or pull off to another pitch, without it sounding like a newly attacked note. These techniques are relatively difficult to express over MIDI. There are three things that are inextricably linked in a MIDI NoteOn message: pitch, velocity, and onset time (play it now.) When a note is "started" on a violin for example, it doesn't exactly have a "velocity" value. The amplitude of the note depends on bow pressure and speed of bow travel, and will develop over time.

Generally guitar interfaces work best with each string sent to its own MIDI channel running in mono mode, with a legato interpretation of notes. A lot of synthesizers don't have a legato mode for note interpretation (it's only a de-facto part of MIDI, not really part of the standard.) It's pretty unusual to find a sequencer that allows for convenient recording, editing and playing back this sort of stream.

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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also it's not just the limitations of midi that bugger things up it is also the limitations of synths both hardware and software.

Most don't readily accept 6 mono channels of midi each with pitchbend.

Also lots of synths do smoothing of pitchbend messages which really mucks things up as hammer ons and slides are sent as pitchbend messages, so instead of a nice hammer on effect you get a short glide type sound, bloody useless.
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ReaktorFreak



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cbm wrote:
Part of what makes instruments different from each other is that the sound is excited in very different ways. MIDI, for better or worse (ok... worse) is modeled exclusively on the way a piano works. You play a note by striking a key, and when you release it, the note goes away. There's not much you can do on a piano to change a note after you strike it.

Many other classes of instrument behave radically differently from this model, and can be very expressive using the techniques appropriate to that instrument (e.g. glissandos, hammer-ons, pull-offs, flutter-tonguing, etc).


That's just what i don't understand from the moment they decide to invent MIDI, it's supposed to be working for all instrument, why don't they think of something more 'universal' than it ? Sure, modeling after a piano key is the easiest way, but torturing guitarist like this is totally unacceptable..

cbm wrote:
There are three things that are inextricably linked in a MIDI NoteOn message: pitch, velocity, and onset time (play it now.) When a note is "started" on a violin for example, it doesn't exactly have a "velocity" value. The amplitude of the note depends on bow pressure and speed of bow travel, and will develop over time.


But aren't Note On Messages have velocity value bound in them ? So it is possible to alter velocity value after Note On has been sent without sending Note Off first ? I thought the one that can develop over time is the CC message, that seems to be independent from Note On Messages..

cbm wrote:
Generally guitar interfaces work best with each string sent to its own MIDI channel running in mono mode, with a legato interpretation of notes. A lot of synthesizers don't have a legato mode for note interpretation (it's only a de-facto part of MIDI, not really part of the standard.) It's pretty unusual to find a sequencer that allows for convenient recording, editing and playing back this sort of stream.


Is legato means 'auto note off then on' when the pitch changes ? Or once a note on has been sent everything is treated as pitchbend message ?

BobTheDog wrote:
Most don't readily accept 6 mono channels of midi each with pitchbend.


But isn't most synth capable of receiving multi-track MIDI input on separate channels ? If the synth cannot do that, it's still can be set up easily from the DAW right ?

BobTheDog wrote:
Also lots of synths do smoothing of pitchbend messages which really mucks things up as hammer ons and slides are sent as pitchbend messages, so instead of a nice hammer on effect you get a short glide type sound, bloody useless.


The synths don't expect wild pitchbend messages going into them, they think 'no one have the ability to move the bend wheel that fast' Smile
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