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dorremifasol
Joined: Sep 28, 2006 Posts: 814 Location: Barcelona, Spain
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 49
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:43 am Post subject:
can you hear saw up & down differences? Subject description: I do... |
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This is something I noticed a while ago, but never so clearly. It must be an psychoacoustic thing.
To me, a simple saw up sounds different than a saw down. By default the G2 has saw up waveforms. When I turn the saw down it sounds like it has a bit more of low end. Of course when I look at the waveform it's just inverted, and there is no visual evidence of emphasized low frequencies, but I trust my ears. I can clearly and blindly hear the difference.
So, maybe is something related to the way my headphones work? or my audio interface? Maybe the ears can really notice the difference? what for?
In any case, I find that the saw down waveform to sound "fuller". Would a Moog synthesizer sound exactly the same if their waveforms were inverted? Curiously it has saw down waveforms.
Please let me know what you think.
I have attached a wave file and a simple patch. Just tweak the polarity knob.
Description: |
simple sound switching polarity |
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polarity.wav |
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897.83 KB |
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1519 Time(s) |
Description: |
simple patch (with some analoguish tricks) |
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amicrazyorwhat.pch2 |
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1.32 KB |
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2110 Time(s) |
_________________ Cheers,
Albert Last edited by dorremifasol on Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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iPassenger
Joined: Jan 27, 2007 Posts: 1067 Location: Sheffield, UK
Audio files: 5
G2 patch files: 78
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:01 am Post subject:
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I have also noticed this, more so once you start adding filters and such like but I have hunch that has something to do with the way the filter responds to the different waveforms, not sure at all though. _________________ iP (Ross)
- http://ipassenger.bandcamp.com
- http://soundcloud.com/ipassenger |
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Roland Kuit
Joined: Sep 29, 2003 Posts: 1090 Location: The Netherlands/Sweden
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G2 patch files: 127
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:12 am Post subject:
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it is more a psycho-acoustic feel. it is like playing the violin. when playing the thing you touch the string with the bow descended and up. thats the reason for in an orchestra that the note lines are noted with the behavior of the bow. it would be a sonologic mess when the string players could decide for themselves to play up or down. hey, you are up early ross:) |
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dorremifasol
Joined: Sep 28, 2006 Posts: 814 Location: Barcelona, Spain
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 49
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:11 am Post subject:
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WOW! I didn't know that about the violin, great info Roland! Now I have something new and cool to tell to my neophyte friends _________________ Cheers,
Albert |
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iPassenger
Joined: Jan 27, 2007 Posts: 1067 Location: Sheffield, UK
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G2 patch files: 78
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Uncle Krunkus
Moderator
Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
Audio files: 52
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:04 am Post subject:
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Wouldn't the capacitance inherent in any routing behave differently between, a sudden positive excursion followed by a falling value, and a sudden negative excursion followed by a rising value?
I know, in theory, that capacitive reactance should present the same regardless of polarity. But what if there are polarised caps in the audio path?
Then again, I could be wrong. Just a thought. _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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Roland Kuit
Joined: Sep 29, 2003 Posts: 1090 Location: The Netherlands/Sweden
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:07 am Post subject:
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a descending bowing gives a positive vibration, up-a negative. it is easy to make a pch and implement this.it will make things more realistic. i will have a look, but not now/have to do things. basically you are right uncle...and not. payed neg of pos after each other, in sound there is no difference in perspective. but played both at the same time it would. |
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Uncle Krunkus
Moderator
Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
Audio files: 52
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:26 am Post subject:
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I'm not really talking about the perception, more about how a saw wave and it's theoretically identical (and yet inverted) timbre may not make it out of the instrument, through the amp, speakers and into our heads with the same shape. There could be some anomaly in the hardware which modifies the timbre just because it's inverted.
Or not. _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24079 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:25 am Post subject:
Re: can you hear saw up & down differences? Subject description: I do... |
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dorremifasol wrote: | I have attached a wave file and a simple patch. Just tweak the polarity knob. |
I dont know if there are up or downgoing saws in the wav (I didnt view it), or maybe both ... when I hold my breath all the bursts sound the same ... however I notice that I tend to sync my breath to the bursts - in on odd bursts and out on the even ones. Breathing in there seems to be another preception than breathing out (and next time for better relaxation make the bursts a bit longer please )
This was on laptop speakers ... will repeat it with some others later ... so please don't tell the plot! _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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dorremifasol
Joined: Sep 28, 2006 Posts: 814 Location: Barcelona, Spain
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 49
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:14 am Post subject:
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Quote: | ...however I notice that I tend to sync my breath to the bursts... |
Jan, you can really FEEL the sound, don't you? _________________ Cheers,
Albert |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24079 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:45 pm Post subject:
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dorremifasol wrote: | Jan, you can really FEEL the sound, don't you? |
Yup ... at home now ... on speakers I hear no difference ... on headphones I do
This should not happen ...
Now let me look at the patch ... _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24079 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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dorremifasol
Joined: Sep 28, 2006 Posts: 814 Location: Barcelona, Spain
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 49
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:38 pm Post subject:
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You don't hear the difference because in that patch you are listening to many different voices, each one with its own LFO and phase.
The effect is only audible if there is only one voice, and one saw. _________________ Cheers,
Albert |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24079 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:59 pm Post subject:
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Oh, didnt look at the voice count, tried it in the demo ... so thats not an issue there. _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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xav
Joined: Mar 21, 2005 Posts: 164 Location: paris
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:36 am Post subject:
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Incredible, what a nice discover! It's evident the filtered saw sound is different, especially in the first octave of a G2 (without noise and sub osc). I'll try to compare the NMG1 (that's in the other sense) or Minimoog paying attention to that point. |
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