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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
So excited about the G2 - I can´t believe it ;-) ...
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doctorno



Joined: Apr 10, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:26 pm    Post subject: So excited about the G2 - I can´t believe it ;-) ... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am relatively new to the NM G2. My main instrument is the electric guitar but I have been playing around with synthesizers for about 20 years now. I have had a Korg Poly 61 first, then a Yamaha CS1x, Roland Juno 106, Waldorf Micro Q, Pulse and Q+, Novation V- and K-Station, several software synths (among them the Arturia stuff and the Korg Legacy Collection), a Nord Lead 2 and recently a Moog Little Phatty, which I bought together with a NM G2 Engine. I quickly found out, that you do not really need an analogue synth anymore, if you have the G2.

Now I have got the NM G2 keyboard and sold everything else.

I still cannot believe it. I have finally found my synth. The NM G2 is just perfect. For me it sounds perfectly, it looks perfectly, it plays perfectly, its layout is perfect. I love the compact size. I am so excited that I cannot find the right words to describe it.

There is only one thing about the NM G2 that I do not understand. Why is this synth not the standard synth owned by almost every keyboard player? For the 21st century the NM G2 could be what the Minimoog has been for the 70s, the Jupiter/ Juno for the 80s and the Nord Lead for the 90s. But people do not seem to realize this.
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: So excited about the G2 - I can´t believe it ;-) ... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

doctorno wrote:
There is only one thing about the NM G2 that I do not understand. Why is this synth not the standard synth owned by almost every keyboard player?
Maybe they don't like the color red?
Nah, seriously... One needs to learn to know how to use the synth the best way. Most keyboard players only use presets. And the sales man who doesn't understand the Nord Modular himself and tells the costumer to buy that other synth...

Wout
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Tim Kleinert



Joined: Mar 12, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:56 am    Post subject: Re: So excited about the G2 - I can´t believe it ;-) ... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

doctorno wrote:
I am relatively new to the NM G2. My main instrument is the electric guitar but I have been playing around with synthesizers for about 20 years now. I have had a Korg Poly 61 first, then a Yamaha CS1x, Roland Juno 106, Waldorf Micro Q, Pulse and Q+, Novation V- and K-Station, several software synths (among them the Arturia stuff and the Korg Legacy Collection), a Nord Lead 2 and recently a Moog Little Phatty, which I bought together with a NM G2 Engine. I quickly found out, that you do not really need an analogue synth anymore, if you have the G2.

Now I have got the NM G2 keyboard and sold everything else.

I still cannot believe it. I have finally found my synth. The NM G2 is just perfect. For me it sounds perfectly, it looks perfectly, it plays perfectly, its layout is perfect. I love the compact size. I am so excited that I cannot find the right words to describe it.

There is only one thing about the NM G2 that I do not understand. Why is this synth not the standard synth owned by almost every keyboard player? For the 21st century the NM G2 could be what the Minimoog has been for the 70s, the Jupiter/ Juno for the 80s and the Nord Lead for the 90s. But people do not seem to realize this.


I do. Three years ago, I swapped my entire keyboard rig (including outboard FX, etc.) for two G2X keyboards. I've never looked back. People rave on about the modular flexibility, which is obvious -but what blows my mind everytime I use this instrument are its performance capabilities. Next to being an great sounding modular synthesizer, its also the most perfectly conceived live performance instrument I've ever laid my hands on. It's just -perfect.

I still think that real analogs have some advantages over the G2 in terms of sound and performance. These might matter in a studio environment -but live they are neglegible. For live use the G2 is my main axe No.1. I'm often tempted to buy a third one. Shocked Laughing
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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What will you use to play the third keyboard??? wait, do not answer...


I think that the G2 does not have enough support from Clavia. There are no updates, no official statements, not enough good presets. Just my opinion of course Smile

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xav



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I often record for Junior Jack, who own so many synth, including Memory Moog, Jupiter8, Super JX... I often spend time to copy analogs sounds, to use them with G2 flexibility, or just to play them without tuning problems. My enthusiasm for the G2 and Junior Jack's team scepticism about the ability to imitate analogic sounds always lead into debates... can a digital waveform do the job? I think it's sometimes useless debates, and more religious arguments than music and acoustic. But I try to understand if there is a real reason to doubt, and I make the effort to point up the differences betweem the sounds I try to imitate, and the originals.
I have to admit my limits to imitate several things:
Roland analog chorus, so useful for the pads or brass
Super JX saw, especially if I compare the entire range
Self oscillation of SE Omega8 filter (G2 filters loose bass frequencies, and cannot be so aggressive when sweeping)

There are other things I couldn't imitate exactly, but I think Tim, Rob and many others in this Forum did tools I haven't tried yet. Maybe I'll be able to give that beautiful color of Memorymoog filter if I add eg. a Tilt Filter...

My wishes would be to buy an midi analog synth or expander, to integrate in my G2 patches, when it is necessary. Maybe should I use it in a loop, to use sometimes the filters, or the vco. But it has to have total midi implementation, and a low midi latency, to be nearly as reactive as G2 modules. Maybe somebody has an idea of what I should buy (something like a sunsyn)? Any suggestion?
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Housefly



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

maybe some state of the art analog filter could give you all you need...

ebbe und flut:

http://www.schippmann-music.com/ebbeundflut.html

or sherman 2:

http://www.sherman.be/

think analog oscilators aren't worth the trouble, but some fine analog filters are...
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dasz



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xav wrote:

I have to admit my limits to imitate several things:
Roland analog chorus, so useful for the pads or brass
Super JX saw, especially if I compare the entire range
Self oscillation of SE Omega8 filter (G2 filters loose bass frequencies, and cannot be so aggressive when sweeping)

There are other things I couldn't imitate exactly, but I think Tim, Rob and many others in this Forum did tools I haven't tried yet. Maybe I'll be able to give that beautiful color of Memorymoog filter if I add eg. a Tilt Filter...

My wishes would be to buy an midi analog synth or expander, to integrate in my G2 patches, when it is necessary. Maybe should I use it in a loop, to use sometimes the filters, or the vco. But it has to have total midi implementation, and a low midi latency, to be nearly as reactive as G2 modules. Maybe somebody has an idea of what I should buy (something like a sunsyn)? Any suggestion?


Well, my weakness has been for imitating ppg'ish atmospheres and pads. The transparent sound of the g2 filters and limited wavetable memory (when implementing with g2 sequencers) in the g2 makes that kind of stuff difficult and believe me I've tried.

But this weekend, I am happy to say, I picked up a Waldorf xt (as celebrated by a new avatar, sorry wout Wink) which is filling this void and can act as a filter box as well for the g2. I used to have a microwave 1 and then a 2 (which was sold to get Nord Modular Classic eons ago) and I could never quite get that kind of sound from the g2

I don't know how responsive the xt is to midi stuff, but so far so good.
/Dasz

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dasz wrote:
... as celebrated by a new avatar, sorry wout Wink ...
You better apologize to the cat! Wink

I once told Dasz I have difficulties with people who change their avatar regulary... The avatar should make it easier to find somebody on the list, I think. (I have also problems when my wife changes her hair style... visit to a shrink?) It's worth the discussion.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xav wrote:
I often record for Junior Jack, who own so many synth, including Memory Moog, Jupiter8, Super JX... I often spend time to copy analogs sounds, to use them with G2 flexibility, or just to play them without tuning problems. My enthusiasm for the G2 and Junior Jack's team scepticism about the ability to imitate analogic sounds always lead into debates... can a digital waveform do the job? I think it's sometimes useless debates, and more religious arguments than music and acoustic. But I try to understand if there is a real reason to doubt, and I make the effort to point up the differences betweem the sounds I try to imitate, and the originals.
I have to admit my limits to imitate several things:
Roland analog chorus, so useful for the pads or brass
Super JX saw, especially if I compare the entire range
Self oscillation of SE Omega8 filter (G2 filters loose bass frequencies, and cannot be so aggressive when sweeping)


I was thinking more of sonic performance than imitating a specific synthesizer. Eg., the G2 (like many VAs) performs badly when using hardsync. In tandem with FM, it's even worse, especially on waveforms with steep flanks (sawtooth and pulse). Filter FM is another offender. Therefore, some of my favourite analog synthesis tricks don't work very well on the G2 (or on any VA for that matter), and I have to resort to real-analog for those things (Alesis Andromeda is a favourite). Digital just doesn't cut it yet, and I mean that in a purely objective, technical way (so not to get into another pointless quasi-religious debate Laughing)


Quote:
There are other things I couldn't imitate exactly, but I think Tim, Rob and many others in this Forum did tools I haven't tried yet. Maybe I'll be able to give that beautiful color of Memorymoog filter if I add eg. a Tilt Filter...


Did you try Robs Filter with passband compensation? This filter has far less passband drop at high resonance settings.

Quote:
My wishes would be to buy an midi analog synth or expander, to integrate in my G2 patches, when it is necessary. Maybe should I use it in a loop, to use sometimes the filters, or the vco. But it has to have total midi implementation, and a low midi latency, to be nearly as reactive as G2 modules. Maybe somebody has an idea of what I should buy (something like a sunsyn)? Any suggestion?


You have to be aware that in your case, the digital MIDI control information has to be converted into analog CVs within the analog synth. This conversion has to entail some kind of smoothing, otherwise the coarse resolution of the CC#s will result in artefacts like staircasing (when modulating pitch), humming (when modulating amplitude), or "harshness" (when modulating PW).

DON'T buy a Sunsyn! I had one and it was a nightmare. The programmable MIDI CC# assignments are not smoothed, causing aliasing noise when modulating analog parameters. You can assign the panel knobs to CC#s -these will be smoothed, but still: the Sunsyn is a dodgy machine. I sold mine to a good friend, who now has alot of hardware-related problems with it. If you read the JoMoX forums, you see a lot of people with problems.

The Alesis Andromeda is a fine machine, despite what alot of people say. The most reliable analog synth for gigging. But it too suffers from non-smoothed digital modulations, with the resulting artefacts. This is the weakest point of this machine. Otherwise I think it's fantastic.

Studio Electronics Omega8: All digital modulations are smoothed, but there's no comprehensive mod matrix with CC# implementation. Very expensive, too. Great sound though.

DSI Evolver/PolyEvolver/PEK etc. : CC# assignments are NOT smoothed, save for the performance controllers (modwheel, PB, foot controller, BC).

Oberheim Matrix12: Everything smoooothed. But also very slooooow. Laughing Love it nevertheless.
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doctorno



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I did not want to start a digital vs. analogue debate here. Of course it is not always possible to get exactly the same sound with the G2 that you could get with certain analogue synths. And for those of you who regard the synthesizer as their main instrument, this might mean that you still need certain analogue equipment. For me it is not so much the question whether the G2 sounds exactly like an analogue synth in any case. The question for me is: is there any musical problem, for which I need a synthesizer sound, that I could not solve with the G2? And my answer is no. Everything I like to do with a synthesizer I can easily do with the G2 - and it sounds exactly the way I like it.
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xav



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You're right, Doctorno. I think nobody here isn't unsatisfied with the G2; we love it. I'm everytimes more impressed, thanks to this community, and I can only imagine other gear to complete the G2. Most of the time, I only need a comparison with other equipments, to understand how to create the same sounds, and if I can achieve that. My objective is to be honest, and to be sure I can do something with the G2, even when analogic preachers tell me it won't be so well.
Thank you, Housefly, Dasz and Tim, for sharing your useful experiments.
Many guys told me the Sherman gives a good result, but they don't use it as their main filter... I never understood and I'd like to try it.


tim wrote:

I was thinking more of sonic performance than imitating a specific synthesizer. Eg., the G2 (like many VAs) performs badly when using hardsync. In tandem with FM, it's even worse, especially on waveforms with steep flanks (sawtooth and pulse). Filter FM is another offender. Therefore, some of my favourite analog synthesis tricks don't work very well on the G2 (or on any VA for that matter), and I have to resort to real-analog for those things (Alesis Andromeda is a favourite). Digital just doesn't cut it yet, and I mean that in a purely objective, technical way (so not to get into another pointless quasi-religious debate Laughing)


That's it, Tim. I didn't noticed hard sync problems. I love the G2 ability to do that and didn't compare with analog gear. But in other situations, I have to add another device to complete a G2 patch 8that can even be another va).
If I use 2 compressors in the same chain, they add noise, in the G2, in digital mixers (yamaha)... I think it's difficult to evitate this problem when it occurs... but it's so easy to add an analog compressor to replace one, or to use one in the G2, and another in the digital mixer, or maybe in another G2, I didn't try.
Otherwise, the G2 modularity helped me for so many things. I noticed clicks at the beginning of sounds, when I tried to imitate a warm Memorymoog patch (not only with the G2, but with many real analog synths). They disappeared when I patched the filter after the EG (of the VCA).



tim wrote:

Did you try Robs Filter with passband compensation? This filter has far less passband drop at high resonance settings.


The Spectrum Tilt Filter, that's it? I love it and I'm sure it will change so many patches in the right way.


tim wrote:

You have to be aware that in your case, the digital MIDI control information has to be converted into analog CVs within the analog synth. This conversion has to entail some kind of smoothing, otherwise the coarse resolution of the CC#s will result in artefacts like staircasing (when modulating pitch), humming (when modulating amplitude), or "harshness" (when modulating PW).


Waw I hadn't considered that point. It seems more complicated than I thought.

tim wrote:

DON'T buy a Sunsyn! I had one and it was a nightmare. The programmable MIDI CC# assignments are not smoothed, causing aliasing noise when modulating analog parameters.
...
The Alesis Andromeda is a fine machine, despite what alot of people say. ...
Studio Electronics Omega8: All digital modulations are smoothed, but there's no comprehensive mod matrix with CC# implementation.
...
DSI Evolver/PolyEvolver/PEK etc. : CC# assignments are NOT smoothed, save for the performance controllers (modwheel, PB, foot controller, BC).

Oberheim Matrix12: Everything smoooothed. But also very slooooow. Laughing Love it nevertheless


That's very useful information!
A friend of mine has got an Omega 8. I thought the digital modulations were sometimes weird, especially to control osc pitch (maybe I misunderstood).... I couldn't really use it easy. But I used it to compare the saw, the moog filter... Considering the price, and the ability of the G2 to approximatively imitate those sounds (regardless of the very high frequencies the filter of the Omega 8 can boost with its resonance)... I didn't buy it. But it is a reference.

I wish the PolyEvolver was an easy and low budget that could help me when I doubt... even if modulations aren't smoothed. I hope it has that charasteristics I'm looking for.

dasz wrote:

I picked up a Waldorf xt


You don't use the Evolver anymore? Wavetable always fascinated me too. The Clavia Nord Wave should be really interesting too.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xav wrote:
You're right, Doctorno. I think nobody here isn't unsatisfied with the G2; we love it.


Word.

xav wrote:
tim wrote:

Did you try Robs Filter with passband compensation? This filter has far less passband drop at high resonance settings.


The Spectrum Tilt Filter, that's it? I love it and I'm sure it will change so many patches in the right way.


No. The filter I mean is a DIY lowpass filter that has a passband compensation, so that the resonance doesn't thin out the sound as much. It only came to mind because you mentioned being unsatisfied with the behaviour of the G2 in this respect. I attached a building block of it below.

xav wrote:
tim wrote:

You have to be aware that in your case, the digital MIDI control information has to be converted into analog CVs within the analog synth. This conversion has to entail some kind of smoothing, otherwise the coarse resolution of the CC#s will result in artefacts like staircasing (when modulating pitch), humming (when modulating amplitude), or "harshness" (when modulating PW).


Waw I hadn't considered that point. It seems more complicated than I thought.


Yes, there are some pitfalls when interfacing digital and analog. I had a lot of bad experiences with these kind of things in the past.

xav wrote:
I wish the PolyEvolver was an easy and low budget that could help me when I doubt... even if modulations aren't smoothed. I hope it has that charasteristics I'm looking for.


You might also want to wait for the new DSI Prophet 08, an analog 8 voice keyboard synth from Dave Smith coming out real soon. I'm really excited about that one.


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xav



Joined: Mar 21, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tim wrote:

No. The filter I mean is a DIY lowpass filter that has a passband compensation, so that the resonance doesn't thin out the sound as much. It only came to mind because you mentioned being unsatisfied with the behaviour of the G2 in this respect. I attached a building block of it below.


Waw! That's exactly what I was looking for. It doesn't react the same way (pitch input and self oscillation), but it preserves the warmth when the resonance boosts the high frequencies. Thank you very much, Tim. I'm going to try to understand that.


tim wrote:
You might also want to wait for the new DSI Prophet 08, an analog 8 voice keyboard synth from Dave Smith coming out real soon. I'm really excited about that one.


I will wait... and I'll look for all that kind of patches you mentioned, before buying anything.
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iPassenger



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Building your own filters is awesome way of expanding the Nord G2. My fave one to date, is a 6 6dB LP, all chained in series but with each filter tuned a little higher than the last, this smears the cutoff freq and therefore the res too. It sounds more like a steep 24dB filter with a wide res band.
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dasz



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nice idea, Ross.

What I do for cheap improvements i run an eq before the filter and after the filter. Same applies for eq-ed distortion.

I still haven't been happy with pads I create in the G2. But I think it might be because I used to own a waldorf mw1 and then mw2 and remembered it's pads too well comparing against my results. I did learn a lot about pads from Dave Peck, but even then, there's something missing.

So I am so glad I have the waldorf filters and wavetables of the xt, which makes pads very easy and adds something else to the mix. (although it means I have to sell my evolver, PM me if interested).

/Dasz

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
dasz wrote:
... as celebrated by a new avatar, sorry wout Wink ...
You better apologize to the cat! Wink

I once told Dasz I have difficulties with people who change their avatar regulary... The avatar should make it easier to find somebody on the list, I think. (I have also problems when my wife changes her hair style... visit to a shrink?) It's worth the discussion.


I am very sorry about that Wout, my avatar is an expression of my state of being.

it's like a face which is dynamic (even animated avatars only show one animation) ... keep in mind I always leave something of me in the avatar (see top right hand corner -- the original avatar is there)...

But I think I will try to create a static avatar to reflect your comments which reflects me and my current interests.
/Dasz

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is not that serious, Dasz! Smile

Just change your avatar as often as you like. It keeps me busy for a while Smile

Wout
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xav wrote:
tim wrote:

No. The filter I mean is a DIY lowpass filter that has a passband compensation, so that the resonance doesn't thin out the sound as much. It only came to mind because you mentioned being unsatisfied with the behaviour of the G2 in this respect. I attached a building block of it below.


Waw! That's exactly what I was looking for. It doesn't react the same way (pitch input and self oscillation), but it preserves the warmth when the resonance boosts the high frequencies. Thank you very much, Tim. I'm going to try to understand that.


It's quite simple: some of the original input is re-injected into the resonance feedback loop, but with negative polarity, as the feedback loop itself is negative (which is necessary for the resonance to work, since a 4-pole filter generates a phase shift of 180 degrees.) This compensates for the passband loss to a certain degree.

If you want more resonance oscillation, crank up the integrating mixer more.

And yes, the filter tracking isn't perfect anymore, which always happens with DIY filters using integrating mixers within the feedback loop.

Thanks to Rob -it's his design.
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xav



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I see... I remind his explanation in the tutorial (Filter warmth), and I can do the relation with that sound example. It does the job better than I thought. Of course, I'd better to try and compare every example of the tutorial before posting. Thanks Tim and Rob!
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