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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » g2ools utilities
g2ools-1.5 nm2g2 and dx2g2 converters
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cappy2112



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[quote="qfingers"]
dasz wrote:

My is Matt, short for Matthew, but I prefer Matt.


For a long time I wondered what 'qfingers' meant.
It's now all-too obvious quick-fingers...
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dasz



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Matt,

wow, this is exactly the context I was waiting to hear from you (and others too -- why are folks so shy Wink)

I too did do a lunch and learn at work back in December of 2003 (hmmm, not after xmas, but some time before). As Howard (mosc) said it so well when I met him in person just prior to becoming a (vocal) member of this community "we are all so much alike yet so different at the same time".

Quote:

Here is what I would like to see from Clavia:

1. Editor ported to Linux
2. Protocols opened for both NM1 and G2
3. File formats opened for both NM1 and G2


Having been close to Clavia for a while now, I can almost guarantee that none of these will made public officially. We (around here), like other mammals, will have to adapt to changes.

I know this sucks. but remember they are a small company in relation to Roland, Yamaha or Korg. Official support means additional documentation and backwards compatibility at all sorts of levels. Time consuming stuff for guys who have x hours a day to do what they need to do (they will love me for this statement Wink ). More time for support = less time for new features. Simply put. A very Swedish statement -- I'm sure Wink Hey, I wish I spoke Swedish Wink
/Dasz

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very cool

Maybe Clavia could throw a bone and give us a G2 sine bank and filter bank. Surely a direct port of each couldn't be that difficult.
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varice



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
Very cool

Maybe Clavia could throw a bone and give us a G2 sine bank and filter bank. Surely a direct port of each couldn't be that difficult.


Clavia, are you listening? Please release a G2 OS update adding new modules that are 100% backwards compatible with the G1 modules so that any G1 patch can be exactly replicated in the G2 - along with fixes for known G2 bugs - *PLEASE*

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varice



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Posted this on the Clavia website feedback:

Quote:
Clavia,

Please give us Modular G2 users an OS bug fix update along with all of the modules necessary to make the G2 100% compatible with the G1 (NM1) - please?

A great new effort has been made by the Nord user community at electro-music.com to create a G1 to G2 patch converter, check this out:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-15405.html

Some effort on your part could bring this project to a fantastic conclusion! Thousands of legacy G1 patches now avalaible for the G2. I think this would really help increase the sales of G2 synths.

Please also consider adding the new features that are feasable that are asked for in the Wish List:

http://electro-music.com/forum/forum-77.html

Regards from a happy user of a Micro Modular, an Expanded Modular Rack, and a G2X,

Varice


Do you agree? If so, then please post your feelings to Clavia.

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timothy



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:12 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great work Qfinger and 3phase!!! This is the best thing ever happened for G2 owners. I really never thougt someone would make this app and I never could imagine someone would make it that fast. I sold my NM when I bought the G2 and have many patches I never had time to convert. Thank you very much. Very Happy
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Fozzie



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree, Matt / qfingers deserves another round of applause, as well as Sven / 3phase cheers cheers cheers This is one very cool app and hopefully will create new interest in the G2. I think Clavia should donate qfingers an expanded NM1 (which they should have in stock somewhere after the G2/NM1 swap action some time ago) for the effort (I believe he doesn't have one) and to allow him to make sound quality comparisons.

Anyway, I personally would like to offer you flowers to say thank you

flower flower flower flower flower flower flower

Fozzie / Paul

edit: rephrased the NM1 donating idea, and while I'm at it: why not petition Clavia to do this? We owe it to qfingers...

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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks..but i just assisted a bit to get it sound wright...The actual coding and reverse engineering is the art in this project...

It's sometimes however a hard nut to make it sound right..

biggest problems found yet are, beside of non exsisting modules, the delay module, the overdrive and ...

for me not really solvable..the 12 db multi filter...
this one sounds very different to the Nm1 one... I cant say better or not..but it sounds different and behaves much more explosive on being in feedback loops...

I stated it before...at least in the actual state of the software some patches using internal feedback loops might need a bit hand tweaking..so when you convert a patch and its just is doing funny noises you might have to look for feedback loops and reduce their amount a bit...

Problem is that on many patches this feedback setting are needed 1:1..while in certain configs..like with the 12 db filter this causes problems...hard or impossible to decide for a converter in which state the dsp will be at certain settings..at least this would be somehow overkill...
I think time can be spend more useful than trying making impossible things happen...

But..maybe its possible to point at feedback points with a color marker so that the user sees critical stages in a patch on sight and might try tweaks there?
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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
Very cool

Maybe Clavia could throw a bone and give us a G2 sine bank and filter bank. Surely a direct port of each couldn't be that difficult.


The sinebank is not needed..the converter is doing a good job on this one and uses less resouces...
So dont ask for the sine bank...
the fixed filter bank is a different story..especially on patches that have it assigned to morphs...but maybe even that can be hacked but probably would need some pretty dense code that analyses how neigbor bands relate and brings up a set of parametric eq´s with adapted qfactors...
so when neigbor bands morph or are set similar a wider qfactor and less modules are applied while when neighbor bands move in opposite directions very narrow q factors are applied... a difficult thing..so use to ask for that one...

The spectral osc is hacked pretty decend..but itt sounds a bit more sexy on the nm1...so i personally would like that one to return instead having 2 versions of the shape osc in the G2...

Has anybody ever used shape osc B? it saves a few percent but dsp usage wasnt an issue for me on the G2 yet..its allways memory usage thats the limit for me..and therefore a simulated spectral osc with 5 or 6 modules allways consumes more memory...

As mentioned before.. The Nm1 overdrive module has some pretty unique behavior when beeing frequencie modulated... not actually "political correct" because a big part of it is actually amplitude modulation than really modulation of the overdrive setting...
In my emulation the closest i could get was modulated crossfaders ..that was doing more to the original sound than modulating the overdrive/sat setting at all...probably clavia optimized that "faulty" behaviour on the G2.. but the fx was somehow characterfull and i used that in many patches...
Again the simulation dont sound as sweet as the original module and is expensiv...
I would like to see its return...

certain settings in the convertion are done with tables... so a static picture of the patch...

A module that adapts control signals in shapes as they was used in the NM1 would help to get compatibility more than anything else...
The converter does a good job there by applying tables..but in case of assigned morphs it has to sound different during the morph range because a table only gives the correct startpoint of a sweep.

So a levelconverter module especially for nm1 uplink wouldnt hurt..

AND! edit..

The delay module... the tiny nm1 delay that was so expensiv dsp wise is only roughly replaced with the new delay modules capable of longer delay times but with less good sound in tuned delay lines...
As was discussed here before...

When the exsiting delays cant be optimized it would be at least good to have such a minimal delay back that uses the dsp internal ram...even when its expensiv memory usage wise it could be important for certain applikations and would make nm1 and g2 sounding identical on converted patches that contain delay modules.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
for me not really solvable..the 12 db multi filter...


I found the percussion osc to be a bit of a troublsome thing, it just sounds different with audio rate pitch modulation (feedback from it's own output) on the G2.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And one other thing...on the G2 buttons on morphs cant be scalled..
I think i ve heard that clavia had planed to solve that later..
But that is in the actual version of the G2 software a tiny problem that could mess up some conversions where waveforms are switched via morphs or similar things...
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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
3phase wrote:
for me not really solvable..the 12 db multi filter...


I found the percussion osc to be a bit of a troublsome thing, it just sounds different with audio rate pitch modulation (feedback from it's own output) on the G2.


True...
That should be fixed..the perc osc on the nm1 is just fine..should be just the same
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fozzie wrote:
edit: rephrased the NM1 donating idea, and while I'm at it: why not petition Clavia to do this? We owe it to qfingers...

Clavia isn't 'we' Smile
If you want to give something, give it then...

BTW I doubt Clavia has any Classics left...
Why should they?

Wout
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Fozzie



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:

Clavia isn't 'we' Smile
If you want to give something, give it then...

BTW I doubt Clavia has any Classics left...
Why should they?

Wout


I didn't mean that 'Clavia = we', I meant 'we could try to get Clavia to do this by requesting it'. Clavia is very well served by qfingers; many users thought it was a big mistake that there was no way to convert NM1 patches (I know, technical issues etc, but that was the general sentiment). Now with the converter, Clavia just got a new G2-selling point for free from qfingers. Maybe we could get Clavia to do it if many people ask for it, who knows...
And whether they have classics left: well, the distributors must have some returned NM1s from the advertizing campaing a while ago when you could trade in your NM1 on a new G2.

I don't have a NM to donate (although I would be willing to chip in if there were a donation thingy somewhere for this project).

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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i have a nm1 but i never would donate it anybody... Smile
it cant do as much as the G2 but its a nice machine and as long as it is cheaper than the engine it serves me well as an expander for the G2
especially because i ve still much more sounds for the Nm1 than i was able to make and collect for the G2 yet...
But actually that is just about to change...

It however would help when the guy that transfers the libary would have an own refference... But i dont think that clavia still has any in stock..probably the ones the got returned do a job now in some swedish schools now or so...

I dont think so many people used their offer anyway..mainly because there was no patchtransfer possible...

actually the converter could lead to dropping second hand prices for the nm1..
But this dont helps during the development of the converter now...
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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
Blue Hell wrote:
3phase wrote:
for me not really solvable..the 12 db multi filter...


I found the percussion osc to be a bit of a troublsome thing, it just sounds different with audio rate pitch modulation (feedback from it's own output) on the G2.


True...
That should be fixed..the perc osc on the nm1 is just fine..should be just the same


I actually was quoting to slight sound differencesbetween the nm1 perc oc and the nm1 version..subtile but there...
hard to tell better or not but i had some patches that didnt convert 100% identical even when i expected that... and in the end of the day i like the Nm1 version more..so i would prefer a identiacl version not an "improoved" one.. The benefit from 100% compatibility is defenetly bigger than slight differences that are rather a matter of taste but no significant improovement.

But...
what do you mean by feedbaclking its own output..can you post an example patch so that i can investigate a bit?


I just added 2 of my test patches...actually the conversion is good and sounds allmost identical..but there is a slight more woody touch to the nm1 version..must have something to do with the applied envelopes..
in this patch there are many short perc tones...

Its not a big difference..its just that i am sensetiv to such little things and i like the nm1 more... but judge yourself..maybe others like the slight high freq boost on the g2 more.. but i think highfreqencys are present enough in the NM1 version allready..so i would go for this tiny bit more of body... Its however little differences..i know enough people that couldnt tell a difference..but that are uusually the people that dont have the job at the mixingdesk...

its not the converters.. i had patches that sounded much closer to each other... however

I would like to have patches that squeeze a bigger difference out of the perc oscilators...


percmod.pch2
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  percmod.pch2
 Filesize:  2.29 KB
 Downloaded:  714 Time(s)


percmod.pch
 Description:

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 Filename:  percmod.pch
 Filesize:  1.3 KB
 Downloaded:  221 Time(s)


Last edited by 3phase on Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
..can you post an example patch so that i can invetiget a bit?


Something like this - made this with an old version (1.28) of the demo software (am working now, well, sort of), it should load though.

I used this a lot on the Classic as it was a cheap way to get interesting sounds IMO, for the G2 it doesn't work that good.


perc_fb.pch2
 Description:
perc osc feedback example

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 Filename:  perc_fb.pch2
 Filesize:  928 Bytes
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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
3phase wrote:
..can you post an example patch so that i can invetiget a bit?


Something like this - made this with an old version (1.2Cool of the demo software (am working now, well, sort of), it should load though.

I used this a lot on the Classic as it was a cheap way to get interesting sounds IMO, for the G2 it doesn't work that good.


Thanks
i ve a look..but would be cool if you have a nm 1 version of such a thing to see how it translates thru the converter...
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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ah i see...feedback to the pitchmod...

Its the same slight sound difference we are talking about..its not far from each other but the nm1 has a slight more rubbery quality to it...

i think its that slight difference that creates the high frequenciy stuff on heavier fm settings...maybe its a tiny bug in the dsp code that creates a bit more zippery noises on fm modulations?

Its difficult to call such things bugs because many people are not able to hear a difference... but digital signals are hard enough..such things build up in a mix ...as rubbery as better is my taste in digital sounds...

I would wish that clavia would have a look into such tiny details when they ever do an update.. its this tiny things that keep a patch conversion from giving 100% sonical matching results..
and 100% results are possible...
The attached patch sounds so close to me that we probably only have DA converter differences here...

i cranked up the mixer feedback to see how nm1 and g2 react on distorted levels..and opposite to oher situations, in this case booth machines handle the situation same good...

What makes me thinking that other situations where the G2 can overload up to a point where the sound is muting are maybe related to an undiscovered bug in the g2´s dsp code... but ? thats just guessing..

Its however strange that the machines can sound so identical at one patch and have problems at another where just a view cables are conected in other ways...

I think its possible to have them sonical compatible..plus the areas where the G2 can do more... maybe realy something that gets optimized in an update..
The exsistance of a patch converter actually gives arguments to adjust such details...as long booth machines had a seperate patchbase it wasnt visible at all because any patch sounds different and without the propper parameter translations G2 and Nm1 behave anyway very different..
The interesting thing the detailed converter shows is that this is in most cases just related to parameter settings...
The few areas where there are really sonical missmatches should be fixed... especially when the nm1 handles the situation better than the g2..
like in the tuned delay lines.


classic.pch
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 Filename:  classic.pch
 Filesize:  942 Bytes
 Downloaded:  230 Time(s)


classic.pch2
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 Filename:  classic.pch2
 Filesize:  1.42 KB
 Downloaded:  748 Time(s)

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
Its difficult to call such things bugs because many people are not able to hear a difference... but digital signals are hard enough..such things build up in a mix ...as rubbery as better is my taste in digital sounds...


It is not a bug as Clavia claimed no compatability.

Still the difference gets quite pronounced when you open up the pitch mod more and make the decay longer. For the NM Classic it could almost be used as a regular oscillator and it had a pleasant byte whereas for the G2 it jsut ... well ... not it. I loved these little things to make cheap patches Very Happy

But as you said more or less, there will always be this kind of differences, especially when you drive the circuits to extremes.

The mixer feedback example you gave in atached patches is such a difference as well, for low feedback it's more or less the same for full feedback it's quite different. On the Classic it was a warmth trick, on the G2 not so much (although still usable).

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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:

It is not a bug as Clavia claimed no compatability.

Still the difference gets quite pronounced when you open up the pitch mod more and make the decay longer. For the NM Classic it could almost be used as a regular oscillator and it had a pleasant byte whereas for the G2 it jsut ... well ... not it. I loved these little things to make cheap patches Very Happy

But as you said more or less, there will always be this kind of differences, especially when you drive the circuits to extremes.

The mixer feedback example you gave in atached patches is such a difference as well, for low feedback it's more or less the same for full feedback it's quite different. On the Classic it was a warmth trick, on the G2 not so much (although still usable).



I am not sure if clavia has intended to get this changes having negativ fx on the sound ..they actually planed to make the G2 sound better..what it does in some areas but in others it don't...
In relation to the Nm1 the G2 is pretty young..maybe there are some optimizations missing?

I am very much your opinion that this little sonic differences are not a win... Even when this is also not really bad ..it appears unnecessary to reduce the fun in this areas.
The patch i just posted shows that the Nm1 and G2 basically sound the same..its not that we have the differences in some areas because of the hardware structure..
Its all just software..and opposite to hardware related issues that can be fixed...

The mixer feedback is actually the issue where it smells like a bug for me.. because this is not stable..in some patches it sounds wright..in others its a problem... I don't see why this have to be a problem...
There is no benefit in this G2 specific behavior..it only risks patches to go to an unstable state or creates nasty distortions...
The Nm1 behaves much more educated regarding internal overloads...
The G2 needs a bit more education in this area..its still young...
and improvements there wouldn't hurt any patch because its just smoothing on overloads...

As i said..i cant guess why clavia would have made such changes intentionally? maybe it has something to do with an other implematation that causes bad side fx that are not discussed or realized enough to become an issue that they see a need to be attacked...

I don't know much about dsp programing..but when in a normal computerprogram can go so many tiny things go wrong.. little bugs that are hard to find...

how is it that there are no tiny bugs in the dsp domain? only the bib ones where functions don't work..never the small ones that you only get by careful listening... Is it just an uneducated theory that i guess a bug could be responsible for such little sonic differences?
And when its not a bug but design..what is the win in this change?
is it making things quicker or resource saving?

Thing is that all points in the G2 sound where it sounds different have a similar sonic structure... the difference in the sound of the tuned delay lines aswell as the differnece on distorted sounds or fm modulations ..
it all shares a certzain character...and therefore i got the impression that this seperated phenomens maybe share all the same source...maybe a changed anti aliasing algorytm or whatever that was applied in certain areas for the purpose to improove something..but while its maybe improoved from a technical view the benefits for the ear might be able to be discussed...
And when ther is point to be discussed..than the question is there if the change was really bullet proofed implemented or if there are maybe some undiscovered side fx that can be eliminated with some code changes... I dont know that... but i know that this little sonic differences keep the Nm1 longer actual than its good for clavia...the biggest competitor for the G2 is the NM1...
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3phase



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Another compatibility problem..the multistage envelope is missing the release time..... or better said a release stage after his 4 stages
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sebber



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Haven't been around lately because of too much work and what do I see? A converter! [hysterical laughter]. The thing I always wanted! Is it my birthday?

This is a real stunner. Very very cool, thanks a lot.

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qfingers



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The next version will have new models, bug fixes, and the first version of dx2g2, a dx7 to g2 converter as well. Probably in a couple of days. 3phase and I are working hard to get all the kinks worked out. He is a monster programmer. It's great to work with him.

q
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G2 patch files: 11

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

first of all big thanks to the creator of this more than nice tool.
unfortunately i can not get it to work on a XP px or neither on a macbook osx. I'll be waiting for the 'sucker save'version Very Happy
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