electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Nord Lead and Nord Wave synths
Different behaviour between the NL/NR versions
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Wout Blommers
Page 2 of 3 [62 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20517
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 147
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:57 am    Post subject:
Subject description: A reply
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
Couldn't find mine and months later I found it underneath my cell phone Wink


I know ... I should call you more often Embarassed

_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Holy smokes Wout ,

the base of your sound clip could be good base material for a composition that could develop.

phiol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4511
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
... the base of your sound clip could be good base material for a composition that could develop.
I have the same thoughts. I'm a bass player myself, so just find myself a percussionist/drummer and a solist to form a RattleBand, as I name it. The synth provides the pattern, the humans improvise to it. Because a synth never gets tired and the players could circulate, the music can go on for hours.

Wout

Last edited by Wout Blommers on Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I also agree w. your bass comment. But what I really meant was good Basis material for a composition.<- I was thinking in french when I wrote it Laughing

Also, I'm 85% into convincing my Friend to swap his NL2 for my 2X!

phiol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4511
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
I also agree w. your bass comment. But what I really meant was good Basis material for a composition.<- I was thinking in french when I wrote it Laughing
I know what you mean Smile As I'm thinking in Dutch, I will write 'Dunglish' for sure!
Quote:
Also, I'm 85% into convincing my Friend to swap his NL2 for my 2X!
I should check the Percussion mode first. What is the difference between the two synths? The Percussion mode in the Nordlead2X has also 4 voices more, so what is happening there when using Hold and Arpeggiator?

I'll try something out this weekend: a sound with a long Sustain and a medium fast Arpeggiator, both in Program and Percussion mode.

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Wout,
Have you had the chance to do your experiments over the week end?

I'd be curious to know about the outcomes.

phiol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4511
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Man...
I'm still in shock!
There is pure gold in that part of the machine Smile

I'm still busy and gladly my family tears me away for three days, so I can chill a bit.

Using the Arp in Percussion mode makes it possible to run complex patterns, with individual notes sounding lower or higher then one which would be expected in the pattern, just by setting a Percussion zone in another octave shift Very Happy
Just keep in mind Percussion mode is 8 NordLeads in line! In fact running on high speed and a large Range (take 4 octaves) means one can tweak the speedy tone in 4 parts, even shift the parts in octaves... Complete madness...

I'm trying to get a hold on it and figure out what's happening, but it will take much more and I mean realy much more time as I yhought. Gladly I have a 16 days holiday at the moment Very Happy

I ran out of adrinaline!

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes I know ,

The percussion part is the only reason I bought the nord for. Why do you think I obssess so much.

Why do you think I talked about making an album etc....
I was an inch close of finding a nord rack 2 yesterday.
Man you should see how it feels to pilot this baby w. MaxMSP.

Complete madness my friend I swear..

****
A shot in the dark. Would you know anyone that would either;

1. be willing to sell a nord rack or lead 2 .
2. or trade for my brand new 2X. <- I thought I had sort of come around it but 5 mins w. my friends nord 2 and forget it . The 2 is more what I personally need.

Thanks Wout and all
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4511
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
... A shot in the dark. Would you know anyone that would either;

1. be willing to sell a nord rack or lead 2 .
2. or trade for my brand new 2X.
Well, first of all not asking this only on this forum, but try the world Smile All forums and mailing lists possible. Maybe there is a granny somewhere who has one on the attic Very Happy Or a spoiled kid who rather wants a mountain bike then that strange thing with no keys at all!

In the mean time save all Programs and other SysEx on the computer, so you can start right away to work with the thing as soon as it arrives.

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
msy2



Joined: May 21, 2007
Posts: 38
Location: united states

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To summarize, is it agreed that the problem in this case has to do with polyphony and not any difference in parameters on the lead 2 versus 2x?

I currently have all three versions in front of me (1, 2 and 2x) and have been doing many tests to try to find any differences.

I have not found any differences in parameter translation, all parameters seem to act exactly the same on each synth. This makes sense of course - it would be odd for Clavia to decide to change one parameter - Amp Attack for example - on the 2x or 2 to suddenly behave a bit different.

I've not completed my tests and am still working to find the best way to test things.

However I wanted to make sure we all agree that there is no difference in the actual paramenters (other than ring mod and other "new" features on the 2 and 2x).

There is already the rumor that the earlier Nord Leads sound better - I want to prevent any rumors that it also has parameters that react differently.

What I'm working on:

1. What are the sound differences between Nord Lead 1, Lead 2, Lead 2x

2. Are there any parameter differences (other than new features like ring mod) - this work is based on the content of this thread. From my work so far I see no differences. Though it is true that the additional polyphony will make things sound different when multiple voices are sounding.

Comments and suggestions for further testing are welcome. I've wanted to have all three at the same time for a while. Your ideas for testing are welcome.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4511
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

msy2 wrote:
... I have not found any differences in parameter translation, all parameters seem to act exactly the same on each synth. This makes sense of course - it would be odd for Clavia to decide to change one parameter - Amp Attack for example - on the 2x or 2 to suddenly behave a bit different. ...
Well, the parameters are the same, sure!
About the AmpAttack it is said it only happens when the Arpeggiator is set in Max Rate! The number of Voices available becomes important then.

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
dorremifasol



Joined: Sep 28, 2006
Posts: 775
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 47

PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I really miss my Nord Rack 2X now. I'm thinking about buying it again, but reading this topic makes me wonder if a Nord Rack 2 would be better.

I really would appreciate a wav file clearly showing the differences in sound between both models ^_^

_________________
Cheers,
Albert
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey

well I have one (nord 2x) up for sale. If you want I can make other wav. or mp3 file to display the differences. I got mine on april 17th 2009.

Play in total about 6 hours on it. It still has the plastic film on the LED display.
The box/CD/ manual etc. it's new.

keep me posted.

I'll post an add tomorrow.

cheers

phil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
msy2



Joined: May 21, 2007
Posts: 38
Location: united states

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, please post more audio and your impression of what is different in each :

general sound difference?

difference due to polyphony (affecting sound when using many fast notes or big chords and layers, etc.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4511
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

msy2 wrote:
... difference due to polyphony (affecting sound when using many fast notes or big chords and layers, etc.)
It doesn't affect the sound, but the range of the knob. First of all, the range, special of the AmpAttack, is smaller already when using at very high speed. When more voices are available the range differs, which means to get the same sound using 20 voices as in 16 voices the knob has to be turned a little more to the left, so the range between that value and zero will be smaller...

And this technique is for obtaining special sounds...

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
To summarize, is it agreed that the problem in this case has to do with polyphony and not any difference in parameters on the lead 2 versus 2x?


1st of all let's agree that it's not necessarily a problem for say. I mean, for me it's a problem because I want to do granular synthesis type things.

Again, as for behavior issues , Wout got it bang on the nail head. I back everything he said.
More voices = more work for the machine= different behavior= different sound color for granular synthesis type stuff.

As for the sound itself, yes I have notice a difference. As mentioned before, on the 2X I feel as if your sound is in a saran wrap Smile but also, I feel it has more presence in the low end. Also that on the 2X, I feel you need to select HP filters the imitate sounds that would be in the LP/notch combo on the 2.
*****Although to be honest, I would have to confirm this by uploading the same sysex files on both . ***

If I have the time today, I will try to load sound clip that spot the differences. But in the end, I think it's just a question of how you feel the behavior of your machine and how it reacts when you tweak it.<- Of course I say this now that I have the rack 2 Laughing

But I'm sure some prefer the sound quality and behavior of the 2X or again feel there's not enough of a difference to go hunting for vintage synths when they can get the "same one" for new.

But, I'm super picky when an instrument must represent who I am as a musician. It's not just gear 'cause in my case the gear is the performer, I conduct! Very Happy

cheers

phiol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4511
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
... Again, as for behavior issues , Wout got it bang on the nail head. I back everything he said.
Thanks, because I still feel a little insecure about it, although my theory explains a lot Smile
Quote:
More voices = more work for the machine= different behavior= different sound color for granular synthesis type stuff. ...
If it is real granular synthesis, I'm not sure... Let's call it "the NordLead pseudo granular synthesis", like Clavia also introduced 'the pseudo additive synthesis' when creating the Hammond sounds in Performance mode.

The NordLead isn't as stable as most people think she is... When tweaking the SemiTone parameter and settingit back to the first value, mostly the phase between Osc1 and Osc2 has changed; sometimes that much the sound is almost muted. Anyway, using the SemiTone changes the sound for sure. After the Program is saved and opened again, both Osc's
will run in sync again.

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Let's call it "the NordLead pseudo granular synthesis"


Yes let's call that. It's not real granular synth but the idea of creating a new tone/sound out of bits of of another sound its basically the same idea. Route that stuff back in MSP and w. the right patch crazy, crazy stuff can happen.

But again, what Is really interesting for me is not to process sound trough effects but rather to manipulate sound in intricate ways that make it sound as if it's going trough effects.<-That why the Max/lead combo is just insane.

You've got max doing it's thing on the nord (which has a brain of it's own Laughing ) so when you start tweaking nord parameters on top of what max is doing, complete madness my friend. <- And no, it doesn't sound like a wall of sound. Maybe sometimes like to many events are going on, but the trained hear will fix that by outlining the obvious by stressing dynamics accents etc.....

oh I am a happy man w. the rack 2.

phiol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4511
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You surely sound happy Smile

Wout

BTW have you tried the Glissando in pseudo-granular yet?
And how about LFO1 set in the same speed as the Arpeggiator and using the Pulse wave form? Nice to use in FM - Ocs2 - Filter destination...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
BTW have you tried the Glissando in pseudo-granular yet?
And how about LFO1 set in the same speed as the Arpeggiator and using the Pulse wave form? Nice to use in FM - Ocs2 - Filter destination...


Oh yes I have, practically the 1st thing I did after turning it on.
I guess the only thing that is wrong w. my rack is all the LEDs dim a little when when receiving midi from Max. It's subtle though. < In other words, I can't find anything wrong w. it.

The OS version I have is 1.03. <- the last is 1.06 if I'm correct. Any suggestion as to how I would upgrade my OS? I think I read in a post that you mentioned that since clavia don't give away updates, one is pretty much stuck w. the version he has!?

thanks

phiol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4511
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
... one is pretty much stuck w. the version he has!?
I'm afraid so...

I'm thinking about something strange...
I made a 4 Slot Performance with a lot of Morphing.
All Slots use Unison, but once I disable the Unison Slot by Slot, I expected the speed of the Arp would go slower or at least stay the same, but it is speeding up... At least, that's what I hear.
This will take the whole weekend, I think Wink

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4511
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing

Hmmm
Asking the question is always part of the answer.

Unison uses half of the voices.
Unison creates a delay of 0.0015 sec on the second channel.

The Arpeggiator in HighSpeed triggers every 0.008 sec.
(Which lies into the margin of 1 - 50 ms given by the Granular Synthese definition)

So first to find out how the Arpeggiator uses the Voices with and without Unison...

See you later.

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
So first to find out how the Arpeggiator uses the Voices with and without Unison...


Not sure I understand what you imply here?

Multiple ch./slot + in poly + unison on each <- will of course have that nord busy and working hard to keep up.

I 'll have to test what you tried and get back to you.

In advance I have to apologies to the others wiating for sound clips. I am working on a show I have tomorrow, monday and next week. the time I take to right here are my breaks Wink . Also, the 2 x is back in the box and to set it up, jam , sysex dump, load on the 2 , recorded etc... is the extra time I don't have until tuesday.. sorry about that.. I will though Wink

Wout, How do I know;
1. what my rack was fabricated in (since it's version 1.03)
2. what was teh update from 1.03 to 1.06. If it,s just extra sounds then who cares Smile

phil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4511
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
Not sure I understand what you imply here?
Trying out the Unison in a multi Slot configureation it appears the Arpeggiator is rather irregular when used in Out mode 3 (alternating Left/right), so each Sot uses its own Output (A>OutA; B>OutB etc) and on the mixing desk a different panning interesting patterns are possible (at normal Arp Rate)...

Which means: a completely new field to investigate... OMG!

Wout

BTW I use Out mode 3 in the HighSpeed (granular) setting, because it will save Voices and the stereo image is okay.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4511
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It appears to be a bug, at least I think so Smile
But is it an Easter Egg?
Could well be, but not a very spectacular one.
I'll attach an example...
And a rather large piece of text Smile

This whole thread is about extremities.
Because the quality of the sound when using the Arpeggiator in its highest Rate depends on the number of Voices available I tried the Stereo Out mode instead of the Unison to create more space in the sound. In 'normal' situations I use the Unison in [Un1] setting (without the detuning) to create a wider feeling, although this uses half of the Voices... Out mode [3Ab] is useful when playing large sustaining chords and using a mixing desk, so the panning of the different Outs can be controlled. Using [3Ab] with single notes, which happens when the Arpeggiator is active, it could drive someone listening using headphones completely crazy, unless the Rate is high and in this case, extremily high.

I was investigating what happens to the Voices and the sound in pseudo granular, so I created a 4 Slot Performance all using Unison and in which Slot B, C and D are muted by turning down the Program Gain. There were differences when Unison was disabled and more Slots were activated and deactivated.

During this the Bug came in. When Slot A was active, all went well, L-R-L-R-L-R-L-R-etc, but as soon as Slot B was activated too, the Output became irregular: L-L-L-R-R-R-L-L-L-L-R-R-R-L-L-L-R-R-R-R-R-L-L-L-R-R-R-L-L-L-L-etc. As soon as Slot C was activated also the Output was normal and when all 4 Slots were blinking the irregularity was there again... The 'problem' was Slot B and D. Wow! After more then 15 years I found a bug Very Happy

Is there any musical use for the bug?
Although it is not that spectacular, the irregularity can be used to break up the too regular pattern of the Arpeggiator. I know I'm not that young anymore, but to get myself in sleep listening for 3 minutes to an Arpeggio will do the job!

The sound example was made using this bug. Slot A provides a steady Arp pattern and I used a single Output, so only half the pattern is heard on the Left stereo channel. If Slot B would be used this would be heard on Output A also, so after setting [3cd] and activating Slot D with the same Arp pattern and a slight different setting of the parameters of the sound, on the Right stereo only this half pattern is heard. Are you still there? Wink

I know Clavia's reaction to this bug: "Bug? There's no bug! We created this specially to make the Arpeggiator more lively, only we forgot to mention this in the Manual. Anyway, we fired that writer a long time ago already!" Wink

Wout


Example60.mp3
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Example60.mp3
 Filesize:  379.1 KB
 Downloaded:  369 Time(s)


Last edited by Wout Blommers on Sun May 24, 2009 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Wout Blommers
Page 2 of 3 [62 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Nord Lead and Nord Wave synths
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use