Live streaming today at
radio.electro-music.com
| |
Muied Lumens |
Jez or Rob's Adventures In Sound |
|
| |
Shane Morris |
Atmosphera |
|
| Author |
Message |
rmiller
Joined: Feb 03, 2003 Posts: 24 Location: Bethlehem PA 18018 USA
|
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject:
Stereo low bass? |
 |
|
| Quote: | | ...do you think it would be beneficial to add another subwoofer?... |
The short answer is YES, but if you're interested in more detail, I gave a paper at the 49th ASA/CAA in Vancouver, 119th AES in NYC, and 23rd VDT in Leipzig titled "Physiological and content considerations for a second low frequency channel for bass management, subwoofers, and LFE" with the following abstract:
By convention, "frequencies below 90Hz produce no interaural cues useful for spatial sound or localization." Yet some claim they are able to hear a difference between a single subwoofer channel (whether or not to more than one subwoofer) and two ("stereo bass"). Reported research supports the Jeffress model of interaural time difference (ITD) determination in brain structures, and extending the accepted lower frequency limit of interaural phase difference (IPD). Meanwhile, uncorrelated very low frequencies (VLF <100Hz) exist in nearly all existing multi-channel music and movie content. The audibility, recording, and reproduction of uncorrelated VLF are explored in theory and experiments.
The full paper is the second .pdf down at http://www.filmaker.com/papers.htm. As Howard mentioned, the objective of these experiments, as with the Ambiophonic DSP plug-in, was to extract every nuance of perception, enjoyment, and realism from ordinary stereo recordings - and for extraordinary electronic music! _________________ Robin Miller |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
janderclander14
Joined: Dec 02, 2008 Posts: 21 Location: France
|
Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:30 am Post subject:
Re: Stereo low bass? |
 |
|
| rmiller wrote: | | Quote: | | ...do you think it would be beneficial to add another subwoofer?... |
The short answer is YES, but if you're interested in more detail, I gave a paper at the 49th ASA/CAA in Vancouver, 119th AES in NYC, and 23rd VDT in Leipzig titled "Physiological and content considerations for a second low frequency channel for bass management, subwoofers, and LFE" with the following abstract:
By convention, "frequencies below 90Hz produce no interaural cues useful for spatial sound or localization." Yet some claim they are able to hear a difference between a single subwoofer channel (whether or not to more than one subwoofer) and two ("stereo bass"). Reported research supports the Jeffress model of interaural time difference (ITD) determination in brain structures, and extending the accepted lower frequency limit of interaural phase difference (IPD). Meanwhile, uncorrelated very low frequencies (VLF <100Hz) exist in nearly all existing multi-channel music and movie content. The audibility, recording, and reproduction of uncorrelated VLF are explored in theory and experiments.
The full paper is the second .pdf down at http://www.filmaker.com/papers.htm. As Howard mentioned, the objective of these experiments, as with the Ambiophonic DSP plug-in, was to extract every nuance of perception, enjoyment, and realism from ordinary stereo recordings - and for extraordinary electronic music! |
Thanks rmiller. By dual subwoofer are you referring to a "stereo bass" setup (i.e. each subwoofer is reproducing bass for left and right channels respectively or for front and back in a 5.1 setup?) or to a dual "mono bass" in which all channels are added and redirected to two subwoofers reproducing identical content?
So, there is not any problem in applying ambio to the bass (20-80hz region) and redirecting that signal (carrying the originals and inverted pairs singals) to even an unique subwoofer?
Regards, |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
rmiller
Joined: Feb 03, 2003 Posts: 24 Location: Bethlehem PA 18018 USA
|
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:25 pm Post subject:
|
 |
|
To all interested in Ambiophonic DSP, I received a couple more private communications that I'll share here to help others...
1) One with a surprising statement: that mostly he "prefered monaural to stereo for music listening!" Surprising as this statement is to me, I believe there is a simple explanation - this person likely has been long-disappointed by the lack of a compelling difference, or the artifacts, of conventional stereo (and had not yet tried Ambiophonics' fix). I suggested as an experiment he take 5 minutes to play the Ambiophonic DSP demonstration at www.filmaker.com/products.htm on a PC (or better yet hook your PC/laptop to your stereo); that he might experience the sense that stereo is not delivering immediately go away. That his perception of a very wide soundstage would place ambience (even artificial reverberation) toward the edges - perhaps for the first time delivering spacious envelopment not possible with monaural (because we hear differences between our two ears whether listening live or to a recording). Yet as with monaural, there is no "hole in the middle." If his setup were working, his listening experience with Ambiophonics would be radically different from then on.
2) Another reported his laptop sounded "OK" by itself, but it didn't work at all when connected to his home stereo (decent Onkyo receiver and JBL speakers). His speakers were laid down on a shelf (tweeter aside woofer instead of atop as the manufacturer intended, thereby creating phase, dispersion, and image problems), and close together inside a TV cabinet, so that his normal stereo listening experience was nearly monaural. I suggested he try pulling the speakers out, set them vertical and even closer together, and calibrate his channels (download the "Left/Right/Center" recording at www.filmaker.com/products.htm) at least by ear if he didn't have a sound meter. Voila! he found one channel weak; when balanced, the demo recording came alive, with sound extending way beyond the TV cabinet. He installed the plug-in and will be listening happily every after. - Robin _________________ Robin Miller |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
janderclander14
Joined: Dec 02, 2008 Posts: 21 Location: France
|
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:55 am Post subject:
|
 |
|
| mosc wrote: |
I have used Virtual Audio Cable myself and unfortunately those drop outs and clicks are apparently par for the course. I'm looking into using Jack for windows and if I come up with good results I'll post it.
|
Hi Mosc,
Any update in the Jack setup for windows? I've been experimenting changing CPU priority and core affinity for both the player and the VST host but I'm still experimenting some occasional audio drop-outs when using Virtual Audio Cable and ASIO.
Any news on fixing the bug with the delay setting of the pluging when used in VST hosts? Its a little anoying to have to set it manually every time the system starts.
Thanks! |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
mosc
Site Admin

Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 16392 Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 91
G2 patch files: 60
|
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject:
|
 |
|
The more we look at jack the less it looks like a solution because it works with "jackified" applications. So, VAC may still be your best bet. The dropout problem is probably related to that, unfortuantely.
As for storing the delay for restart, no solution for that yet, but we are still looking into it.
What delay do you use? BTW. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
janderclander14
Joined: Dec 02, 2008 Posts: 21 Location: France
|
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:27 pm Post subject:
|
 |
|
| mosc wrote: | The more we look at jack the less it looks like a solution because it works with "jackified" applications. So, VAC may still be your best bet. The dropout problem is probably related to that, unfortuantely.
As for storing the delay for restart, no solution for that yet, but we are still looking into it.
What delay do you use? BTW. |
Thanks Mosc,
I re-placed my front speakers to a 20 degree angle so I'm using a front delay of 89 us. Back speakers have a higher angle (around 40º) as they are fixed in the wall. I'm using a 160 us delay.
Regards, |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
mosc
Site Admin

Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 16392 Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 91
G2 patch files: 60
|
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:26 am Post subject:
|
 |
|
So what kind of music are you listening to and how do you like the results? _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
janderclander14
Joined: Dec 02, 2008 Posts: 21 Location: France
|
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject:
|
 |
|
| mosc wrote: | | So what kind of music are you listening to and how do you like the results? |
Since I placed the front speakers close together and ajusted the delay, ambiophonics result in the most dramatic improvement since I applied DRC. Now, I'm using a dual stereo setup (attenuated signal feed also to the back channels) for stereo music and the results are very pleasing. An almost 180º soundstage and a very clear center mix, after ajusting the zentrum parameter using a SPL meter and the LRC test signal. Certainly the center channel is no more needed and voices are cristal clear. I've being testing all kind of music from pop to classical and arrived to a compromise in the parameters with the "space" set to 6. Above that, the sound becomes too "full" and a little fuzzy, below 5 it loses some o the "punch" in some "dry" recordings and it becomes a little thin.
I've also tried many movie soundtracks with a 4.2 dual ambio setup feed with the 5.1 signal using the same parameters. Results are also impressive with a solid 360º soundfield, except from the occasional drop-outs caused by the rewire process. Again, even without using the center and back channels the mono mixes are very present and clear. Speakers "dissapear" when lights are off.
Regards, |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
mosc
Site Admin

Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 16392 Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 91
G2 patch files: 60
|
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:27 pm Post subject:
|
 |
|
Yes, speakers disappearing is a tremendous thing. Listening to radio.electro-music.com, sometimes I have to look up at sounds I hear from some place in the room.
Glad you are digging it. Somewhere in your future you going to get an RME interface.
Rewire, Reroute, Jack, VAC - none are really good enough for your setup, or mine. IMHO, of course.  _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
durwood
Joined: Apr 25, 2008 Posts: 28 Location: Chicagoland
|
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:13 pm Post subject:
|
 |
|
Results on the new plugin seem alot more positve than older versions.
Now and then I come across more and more references to ambiophonics and I think they were from early impressions.
For example Siegfried Linkwitz? I know he references it several times on his site.
| Quote: | I find DSP that cancels loudspeaker cross-talk at the two ears impressive at first, but it becomes quickly 'phasey' and artificial. Headphone listening is artificial in spatial terms. DSP for ambience recovery from 2-channel recordings and with four additional speakers for playback lasted longer for me, but the speakers have now all been converted to PLUTO and are put to different use. None of my previous playback systems conveyed the sense of naturalness that the present ORION++ has. It differentiates recordings even more and mostly for the better.
All this makes me wonder about the efficacy of room equalization. I think DSP is in for a fight with ESP and not just with physics.
|
Here is a more recent example again briefly mentioned:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/AES-Munich'09/reproduction%20as%20live-18.pdf
I have also talked to Tom Nousaine about it briefly and he had heard an early version of it from Ralph and made the comment it never really worked the way it had been promised.
I cringe at calling it promotion, but do you ever branch out and try to offer demos to certain celebrities to see what their current thoughts are on the newest concept? The reason I ask is because I have to agree with the statements from the convolution method but feel the new version is not like that. |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
rmiller
Joined: Feb 03, 2003 Posts: 24 Location: Bethlehem PA 18018 USA
|
Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:00 am Post subject:
|
 |
|
| Quote: | | ...ambiophonics result in the most dramatic improvement...An almost 180º soundstage and a very clear center mix, after adjusting the "Zentrum" parameter using a SPL meter and the LRC test signal [see www.filmaker.com/products.htm]. Certainly the center channel is no more needed and voices are crystal clear...I've being testing all kinds of music from pop to classical and arrived at..."Space" set to 6. I've also tried many movie soundtracks with a 4.2 dual ambio ["PanAmbio" surround] setup fed with the 5.1 signal...Results are also impressive with a solid 360º... |
...and (re Linkwitz and Nousaine comments about early Ambio solutions)...
| Quote: | | I have to agree with the statements from the [earlier] convolution method, but feel the new version [Ambiophonic VST] is not like that. |
Thanks to janderclander14 & durwood for your feedback. As the developer of the earlier RACE encoders, I can attest that this latest Ambiophonic VST plug-in is the result of a great deal of work to make it best of breed. We invite other users to comment on how it changes the way you experience stereo or surround music, movies, or games. _________________ Robin Miller |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
janderclander14
Joined: Dec 02, 2008 Posts: 21 Location: France
|
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:40 am Post subject:
|
 |
|
| mosc wrote: |
As for storing the delay for restart, no solution for that yet, but we are still looking into it.
|
I was wondering if, as a temporal solution, could it be possible to change the default delay value of the dll by maybe changing a windows registry key or some file?. I've put the speakers in the definitive location and I only need that all the plug-in dll instances load with a fixed delay value.
Regards, |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
rmiller
Joined: Feb 03, 2003 Posts: 24 Location: Bethlehem PA 18018 USA
|
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:38 am Post subject:
AmbioDSP plug-in Subject description: user feedback |
 |
|
Received a personal e-mail from a user in Switzerland who tried the several available Ambiophonic solutions and proclaimed AmbioDSP “my favourite Ambio plugin, which is well worth the money!” (Hope he posts directly on this forum more of his helpful findings.) _________________ Robin Miller |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
|
 |
Please support our site. If you click through and buy from our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com
- Conditions Of Use
|
|