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Can ambient music contain beats?
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Can ambient music have beats
Yes
97%
 97%  [ 34 ]
No
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 35

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orczy



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:00 pm    Post subject: Can ambient music contain beats? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hiya all.
I've been thinking about this a bit recently.
Anyone who has heard my stuff will know that I like traditional ambient, ie no beats etc.
It came to my attention that I ma very out-of -date. This doesn't bother me, but it has made me think.
What do you all think...
Can music that has a beat be truly ambient?
Or am I being pedantic?!
I look forward to some discussion on this.
Cheers
Chris
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[I moved this topic from editorials to composition and deleted a duplicate post.]

I'm sure people have strong opinions about this stuff, but I'll sound off anyway. I think ambient music can have beats, if you extend the meaning of beats from in-your-face intense drum-like sounds to include subtile repeating rhythms of any sound. Thus, a motorcycle engine would have beats. Much ambient music uses delays which impart a rhythmic quality. Is it a stretch to call this beats?

Some ambient music features LFO type modulations. These are rhythmic; why not call them beats. Often, these rhythms are made by beat frequencies. Shocked

I never could relate to the term ambient music in the first place. It implies a beatless, sustained, non-gestural, relaxed, unimposing, and background quality. I don't see why you can't have beats in music that is also described that way.

The term ambient implies that the music is somehow less important that non-ambient music. There is an unspoken "It's just background music, no need to listen critically to it." Well, perhaps this is a misunderstanding, but it is a common one. I prefer the terms relaxing, meditative, nurturing, spritutal, sustained or maybe steady-state.

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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like to put rhythms in some of my ambient tracks. I don't like it to be overpowering or dance/club-like. I like it to be exotic, and many times I don't like the percussion to sound like traditional drums. Sometimes my rhythms are strange glitchy sounds. I think the key to ambient music is restraint.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am against pigeonholing music inside strict rules so I don't see why "so-called" ambient music shouldn't have beats. I agree with Mosc:
Quote:
I think ambient music can have beats, if you extend the meaning of beats from in-your-face intense drum-like sounds to include subtile repeating rhythms of any sound.

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gravehill



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I also voted yes.

It's not a question of if something is allowed, it's what you do with it. The beat doesn't have to dominate in any way. It can even be almost inaudible, just adding a little bit something to the forward flow of music.

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jkn



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Absolutely.

I personally think of ambient as music that's equally at home in the background (the classic 'wallpaper' definition) and up front and actually 'listened' to.

Ambient has quite a few different definitions that people latch onto - I like to think of all of them as correct - they're just different flavors of the whole ambient ice cream sundae.

What instruments are involved I don't think really has a strong bearing on whether the music is ambient or not.

The music I write I pretty much lump all of it into ambient - but different pieces meld in different ideas from other areas - a bit of funk, a touch of industrial, some techno, jazz, generative, micro, whatever... but overall - I think it still has that ambient feel to it. Subtle shifting. Taking it's time to get where it's going.

John
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes it can!
I think Drone music should may not contain beats but there are anyway no fixed rules.

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gravehill



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just posted the following tip to the software vocoder thread. I'll repeat it here as it fits the subject:

Especially with more ambient stuff I use vocoder often with drums. A good companion would be a choir sound or a pad. Then just try out which one works better as carrier and which one as modulator. It works both ways, the result is just a bit different.

This is one way to make beats that even sound more or less ambient Cool

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am still not quite sure what ambient music is. Does it matter? Anyway, I guess we shouldn?t step on the toes of the journalists/ music reviewers. Very Happy We make the stuff, and they decide what it is? Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My understanding of what ambient music is of course coloured by this story:

( this version is written by John Kelman - allaboutjazz.com )

Quote:
This direction was rooted in a circumstance where Eno, following a minor accident, found himself confined to bed rest with a rudimentary and not altogether-functioning stereo system playing a record of 18th Century harp music. The music, rather than dominating Eno's consciousness, was more a part of the general ambience of the room; no more or less a part of the sounds that invaded Eno's perception than drops of rain on a window pane. This experience gave Eno the idea which would ultimately become inarguably his most significant and enduring musical concept - Ambient Music; a style which would set the stage for many imitators in subsequent years but, with a purity of intent and execution, often copied but never imitated.

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=15608



This story was all over the place back then. Eno had his own concept of what this was about, but he did not invent floating soundscapes and similar music styles. At the time we had at least 10 years of recorded music by a large number of artists who were doing this and more. It can be argued that the inexpensive synths, tape recording devices and whatnot made it possible to make music like this without spending a fortune on hiring a sinfionetta group or a symphonic orchestra. It was suddebnly also possible to develop and shape the music while recording it. At the time, this was a really new and revolutionary concept.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Eric Satie - protrait by Suzanne Valadon

Eric Satie was more of the father of ambient music than Eno.

There are many references to him. This is from http://www.af.lu.se/~fogwall/intro.html

Quote:
Satie was a forerunner to minimalism. He experimented with what he called furniture music, meant to be in the background rather than listened to. He composed music to be listened at different angles, similar pieces divided into several parts. Many of his compositions have influences from medieval music and from French composers.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don´t have a lot of time at this moment but I have three points, in accending order of relevance;

a)I thought I´d show my pale snout; Hi. :¬)
Stuff happened. I feel much better now.
A sincere thanks to those who cared, I suppose I had to go through a little phase.

b)One thought that struck me as amusing is that in the English language (as perhaps in others) "beat" as a word in the musical context has multiple meanings. It can be the sound of a hit percussion instrument, but it also refers to two or more tones drifting in and out of phase (piano tuners use that, at least the good ones). Apart from being a amusing word joke, it does bring our attention to the fact that you´d have to go out of your way not to have rithmic elements. Satie, to make matters even more amusing composed for a percussion instrument; the piano is a percussive instrument, in nature more like the kick drum then like the organ, even if you wouldn´t say by it´s looks. I´m not trying to lecture, merely point out correspondences.

c)I think it´s much more usefull practically to sort music by it´s effect and the composer´s intention then by the instruments and techniques used (even if I´m greatly in favour of discussing instruments and techniques on their own). If some definition of what ambient is could be given, based purely on what is and what isn´t allowed to be in a "ambient" piece then within days somebody would compose a piece that was clearly within those rules and very opfront at the same time, I probably have a few lying around already in my little collection of music. A few days ago I attended a performance where breakcore and deathmetal were mixed (with ambient too!), in my own DJ sets I often mix loop based piano pieces with minimal techno. People who say they like "guitar music" make little sense to me. I once fell into the same trap, asking a german record dealer who specialised in easterneuropean music for "messed up drum & bass". After some searching he found a record that he felt was perfect, I think it was chegoslovakian avandgardism based on only a drummer and a bass player. I couldn´t listen to it there and it was expensive so I had to leave it.... It looked like it would go down well with a audience for "messed up drum and bass" too, perhaps as a breakdown in a three turntable set.

Rules can be stimulating, I like to remember that following them is a choice.

Just my thoughts, as always.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I know it's not always a good idea to try to put music into categories.
But sometimes, when working with other musicians, it's useful to communicate what kind of music you are going to play.
If I say, let's play something ambient, it means that the rythmic elements will be minimal.
If ambient music has beats, then what do we call music that doesn't have any beats?

welcome back Kassen
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orczy



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I suppose the reason I first really loved ambient music was for the lack of percussion instruments. Drone, drift, soft, spacious. A beat regulates this too much for me. Freedom!!! Laughing
All this being said, Hassell and Eno did some wonderful work using percussion, and I still think of that as ambient.
I agree with one comment that is central to all reply: pigeonholing is not good. I use the term ambient to describe my own stuff for 2 reasons: if I didn't, some people (reviewers, critics etc) may think I am attempting "Classical" music because of the instrumentation. I am not doing that. Secondly, it gives listeners a clear idea of my intentions. Maybe "somnambient" would be more useful!
Anyways, I see I am the only non beat guy, so I guess I have a narrow view of "ambient". C'est la vie! Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

egw wrote:
I know it's not always a good idea to try to put music into categories.
But sometimes, when working with other musicians, it's useful to communicate what kind of music you are going to play.
If I say, let's play something ambient, it means that the rythmic elements will be minimal.
If ambient music has beats, then what do we call music that doesn't have any beats?

welcome back Kassen


Would "atmospheric" be less confusing?
I think it´s worthwhile to seperate "beats" and "rithmic", clasical music is ripe with very rithmic pieces without any beats. A solo gipsy-style violin can be downright hysterical without any beats and certainly not ambient...

I also think you could play blues without touching a single blues instrument.
of cource that doesn´t mean your drummer should start soloing all over the place, but i think that the implication of "this has beats so it´s not ambient" is going too far.

The core of the issue is perhaps that our language is simply not (yet?) well suited for discussing music beyond the immediately practical and that the posibilities of modern music have grown much faster then we can categorise. We hardly know what a instrument is anymore, nor are we exactly sure when it´s being played these days.

I propose we make do and pray our grandkids will sort out the mess.
:¬)

And thanks.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mustel, are you aware of the work of Thomas Koner? He did a few great albums of ultraminimal drones with names like "Permafrost", but he also was (is?) half of a minimal techno formation where he combines similar textures with very downplayed and deep beats. You night want to check out his work and compare the effects on you the "spoil/spoiled" 12" on Force-Inc is a personal favourite of mine on the beats side, "Nuuk" on the drone one.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

The core of the issue is perhaps that our language is simply not (yet?) well suited for discussing music beyond the immediately practical and that the posibilities of modern music have grown much faster then we can categorise.

Interesting. Back in the old days, we didn't have all these categories and genres. To me, this is a new phenomena. If this trend continues, there will be ever increasing terms that are meaningless. At some point, the younger generation will consider it passe. I'm ready for that, but I though Rock
And Roll was dead in 1970. Shocked

That's one reason I like the word experimental - it implies no predefined styles or sounds. It kind of rules out recognizable stuff, which isn't the intension, but no term is perfect. Still, I think it's possible to have blues that is experimental - at least for conversational purposes. But, we aren't talking about experimental music here. Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Actually - "experimental" has a certain genre sound attached to it for a lot of people... Smile And an experimental band using guitar/bass/drum is fairly different from an experimental artist cutting up tape loops or scratching their cd's... Don't get me wrong - I like that name for music... Smile

I only go back as far as the early 80's as far as actually paying attention to this kind or that kind of music - and there was just as much compartmentalization as there is today.

People can slice and dice all they want to - I like the term "ambient" to be sort of like "rock" in a vague sense - it's an umbrella term to me that covers a lot of territory without getting ridiculously into niche-land. Calling it "electronic" would probably be just as useful - except to me that term pulls in all the heavier techno, drum n bass, idm, whatever - that is generally pretty far away from most people's definitions of ambient that I've run across. That not to say that we can't have ambient mixed with techno or ambient mixed with dnb...

In the end - it's all a big pointless debate - everyone puts things into their own categories in their head - and marketing generally drives the genre names. Most ambient usually ends up in the new age section in brick and mortar record stores - it doesn't split out into ambient unless you're in a specialized shop. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Same discussion a couple of months back on the ambient.us forum:

http://www.ambient.us/forum/topic-359.html


note: I post as "interstitial" on that forum.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For me, ambient refers to music which permeats and (re)enforces my current surroundings, or even 'mindspace', without requiring any (overt) awareness of the music playing.

As such, a freektekno dj set, the "reshaped" Basic Channel E2E4 (for me personally, a very good example of beated ambient) or the breaks of Snares' printf("shiver in eternal darkness/n") (even) are just as valid ambient music experiences as Wieland Samolak's Steady State Music, Köhner or Lustmord; they just 'require' the right setting, and/or mindset.

That said, music which is described by an artists as "ambient" and carries beats usually sounds very, very corny to me, with few exceptions.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Kassen wrote:

The core of the issue is perhaps that our language is simply not (yet?) well suited for discussing music beyond the immediately practical and that the posibilities of modern music have grown much faster then we can categorise.

Interesting. Back in the old days, we didn't have all these categories and genres. To me, this is a new phenomena. If this trend continues, there will be ever increasing terms that are meaningless. At some point, the younger generation will consider it passe. I'm ready for that, but I though Rock
And Roll was dead in 1970. Shocked


Oh, but you were right; very little rock and roll has been made past ´70 that can touch the 60´s stuff, imho. :¬)

I don´t think genre names are inherently a bad idea. As Egw pointed out; we still need to talk about music, what I think causes the problems is that the genre names are used to imply concepts on many different levels at the same time that need not always go together.

Quote:

That's one reason I like the word experimental - it implies no predefined styles or sounds. It kind of rules out recognizable stuff, which isn't the intension, but no term is perfect. Still, I think it's possible to have blues that is experimental - at least for conversational purposes. But, we aren't talking about experimental music here. Rolling Eyes


Strictly speaking not, but every time I go to performances of experimental electronic music there is a certain sound and feel behind it all (and the same goes to a lesser degree for acoustical experimental music). You are supposed to have clicks and buzzes, the high end always sounds in a certain way, etc. Somehow no experiments are done involving gabba kickdrums or guitar rifs; there´s a unwritten rule that if it´s catchy and dancefloor friendly it inherently can´t be experimental. I also think "experimental" as a label gets applied at the wrong side. Listeners call the music experimental, not the composer or musician (which explains why "experimental" mostly sounds the same, there´s a heavy amount of group-think involved). I myself often get filed in the "experimental" category though I have *never* recorded any experiments, I may do a lot of experimentation but I only start recording once I feel I have sufficient controll over the techniques involved.

If we are going to get rid of any label it should be "eperimental", I think, experimentation is a process, not a end product and if it´s a goal you probably have a problem.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
[ I myself often get filed in the "experimental" category though I have *never* recorded any experiments, I may do a lot of experimentation but I only start recording once I feel I have sufficient controll over the techniques involved.

If we are going to get rid of any label it should be "experimental", I think, experimentation is a process, not a end product and if it?s a goal you probably have a problem.


Yes, that is exactly what I think too. That said, we agree on the uise of the term and what it implies. That said, it does obviously mean something else to others.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

Yes, that is exactly what I think too. That said, we agree on the uise of the term and what it implies. That said, it does obviously mean something else to others.


The thing is that I kinda like the stuff that gets called "experimental" so I´m reinforcing the notion myself too.

To further complicate matters; I think most of the best experiments in music I´ve witnissed were actually more social experiments then they were musical ones....

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

AFX-Selected Ambient Works afro
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

richie_dionysus wrote:
AFX-Selected Ambient Works afro


Of which, I think some of is VERY difficult to call ambient. There is a track on Vol 2, disc 2, that is just pure rhythm track. I thought that was pushing the name "ambient" a bit.
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