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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
G2 Challenge - Complex Oscillators
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exeterdown



Joined: Oct 13, 2013
Posts: 47
Location: Melbourne, Australia
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:29 pm    Post subject: G2 Challenge - Complex Oscillators
Subject description: Inspired by Buchla, Verbos, Make Noise and Jim Singh
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Hey all, I was thinking about this problem today and thought it might be a nice challenge to to put to the community.

Inspired by the Verbos Complex Oscillator, which I assumed would be another Buchla copy - but like the MakeNoise DPO this has its own sound. Very raw and untamed - like it has mistakes built into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAVJtEzyaYk

I'd love to see what everyone's take on a complex oscillator is - that is something that can be cut and paste into other patches. Can of course contain delay lines, filters and so on, but I'm looking at how to combine a few elements and create something unique from them.

It might sound silly but I'm almost trying to escape that 'G2 sound' - or at least get away from the 'out of the box', raw, clean, digital, oscillator sounds it produces.

Some great videos on complex oscillator theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQqXRSV8msA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-ml72uqEhM
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Tim Kleinert



Joined: Mar 12, 2004
Posts: 1147
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 236

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DIY oscillators is a tough one because aliasing is constantly imminent.

Thus all my DIY oscillator designs (additive, wave-draw, hard-sync etc.) are based on the concept of generating the waveform at a fixed low frequency, and then performing band-limited re-sampling to the desired pitch. This doesn't eliminate aliasing completely, but limits it to harmonic aliasing, which is way less intrusive and actually can add a bit of spice to the sound.

Oscillators using BLEP processes are theoretically possible on the G2, but such a design would eat one DSP easily just for one oscillator. It wouldn't be much more than an "educational patch" for the experimental section.

Of course, if you don't mind aliasing, the sky is wide open.

cheers,
t
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exeterdown



Joined: Oct 13, 2013
Posts: 47
Location: Melbourne, Australia
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Getting schooled here, but this is great. Very Happy

Any chance you can give me a bit more background or depth on aliasing or what the methods you've mentioned are?
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Electromagnetic Wave



Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Posts: 271
Location: Kebek
G2 patch files: 38

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi exeterdown,

You need to have a look to a couple of this links/patchs mainly from Tim Kleinert :

Quote:
The G2 oscillators have good anti-alias algorithms, which allows them to go into quite high pitch ranges before the annoying intermodulations kick in. However, this is not necessarily the case whenever you start to do DIY oscillators.

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=aliasing&t=4062

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=aliasing&t=52494

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=aliasing&t=56554

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=aliasing&t=61744

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=aliasing&t=64110

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=aliasing&t=64986

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=aliasing&t=44819


Here is a good explanation from 1 technic illustrated in the links/patchs from Tim Kleinert :

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/post-178465.html#178465


And don't forget to abuse the 'search' option in the forum, it's a gold mine Wink
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Tim Kleinert



Joined: Mar 12, 2004
Posts: 1147
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 236

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry for not replying more swiftly.

Sincerely hope I didn't come across as condescending in any way, it isn't my goal to "school" anyone here. Everybody's opinion and artistic choice is valid.

The problem with a digital modular system is that aliasing is basically lurking at every corner. That's not a criticism, as digital modular environments have a tremendous amount of benefits. It's just important to keep it in mind and to prevent it where it matters, if possible.

Generating new and unusual oscillator waveforms via some kind of nonlinear waveshaping is potentially the worst offender here, that's why I mentioned it.

In terms of getting an idea of what it takes to generate anti-aliased classic waveshapes, I found this paper to be the easiest to understand, because it has a lot of neat graphs and visualisations. It will give you a good grasp of the inherent problems.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/3321831_Antialiasing_Oscillators_in_Subtractive_Synthesis
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Electromagnetic Wave



Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Posts: 271
Location: Kebek
G2 patch files: 38

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for this paper Tim. I will read it carefully.

Quote:
but such a design would eat one DSP easily just for one oscillator. It wouldn't be much more than an "educational patch" for the experimental section.

I'm not realy agree with that. A mono synth that contain only 1 killer OSC + 1 filter could be a nice patch(performance/.prf) to explore. I like mono 'lead' sound . I restarted composing by recording track by track. In this way it is possible to use the g2 with patches that require a lot of power to the system.

I have fun to build big .prf with a lot of stuff. But sometime I like to play with only 1 killer patch/sound too Smile
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Tim Kleinert



Joined: Mar 12, 2004
Posts: 1147
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 236

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Electromagnetic Wave wrote:
I'm not realy agree with that. A mono synth that contain only 1 killer OSC + 1 filter could be a nice patch(performance/.prf) to explore.

Well my last complete patch actually is one anti-aliased complex oscillator per DSP (with a detunable copy thereof to fatten things up) -albeit without a filter, because it is based on the additive paradigm. It uses the method I described above (bandlimited resampling).

Another method is to just throw copious amounts of oversampling onto a waveform generation method of choice in order to get a high-quality result. The G2 doesn't offer oversampling, but just now I had a revelation about how to fake it, at least for a monophonic scenario: "Abuse" the G2 polyphony feature! Smile Meaning: having individual voices generating the same waveform in incremental inter-sample phase offsets and then summing the outputs with an appropriate FIR lowpass filter -all by using the "status" module for phase offset and FIR coefficient addressing. In this method you could "theoretically" oversample up to 32x Shocked Cool, as this is the maximum polyphony of a given slot.

Actually it pisses me off a bit that I had this insight now and not earlier doh , because I don't own a hardware G2 anymore and can't patch it. But maybe somebody else can.
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Electromagnetic Wave



Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Posts: 271
Location: Kebek
G2 patch files: 38

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
but just now I had a revelation about how to fake it

Again and again you have innovative ideas !

Quote:
because I don't own a hardware G2 anymore and can't patch it. But maybe somebody else can.


You can use mine (G2) by remote access if you have internet connection. Wink

But that just is not you who has to develop all these jewels. Here winter begins, I'll take the time to study my g2!
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