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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » NM Classic (NM1 or G1)
Classic Sequencer with duration and skip...
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gomidas



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:34 am    Post subject: Classic Sequencer with duration and skip... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi everybody

...once again I need help Embarassed

I've been trying to recreate Rob's patch in this topic http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-5476.html for the NM G1 but the BinCounter, Mux, and Gate NOR modules are missing on the G1 and my knowledge is...POOR:?
Do you think we can make those modules for the NM G1?
This patch is simply a gold mine for me (like all Rob's patch:lol:) because I don't work with software sequencer anymore at the time, and G2 can now handle a lot about sequencing...
I will love to have a sequencer like this for the NM G1, but maybe it's impossible...

Thanks
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gomidas



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have just notice that maybe I should have post this in the NM Classic section?

Sorry Mosc, tell me if I got to fix it Embarassed
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This topic was started in this topic http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-5476.html but as Gomidas suggests, I moved it to the NM Classic forum...
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So, you want a sequencer and have one knob controll the duration of all the notes? How about simply putting a negative edge delay over the triger output of a normal sequencer? Possibly using a morp group to controll the range?

Yes, you can make Binary counters, Muxes and Nor's but I don't think you need those here. A "nor" is just a "or" followed by a logic inverter, B.T.W.. Binary counters are just a chain of flipflops, Muxes are a little harder.

No need to blush, I sugest you look up a good tutorial on formal logic if you want a firmer foundation in this stuff.

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gomidas



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Kassen Very Happy
It is a good way for me to start tweaking.I agree with you I took the easy way to get rid off my problem and I am going to check some logic tutorials as you said.But before that, I wanted to ask if someone in the forum didn't make it already Embarassed
I surely post the patch when it's ready.

Thanks(again) for your help.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, that's not how I meant it. I don't realy mind answering a few questions every now and then. I just waneted to grab the chance to point out formal logic because I think that's a resource that's often overlooked and that can realy help improve your patches once you get it down.

Not many people know what a "nor" does, there is no shame at all in asking. I think that in the long run getting formal logic down is actually the easy route. Logic modules are realy extremely simple things when it comes down to it and I think you'll enjoy your synth a lot more if they get rid of that scary aura that they hold for many people. Logic puzzles can be a lot of fun then.

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gomidas



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Now I want to know more about logic, and you push me to do it.So I really think you did say good,I was not ironic Wink
I am on my way now...I go back to work...

BTW no flip/flop on the NM classic, so I know where to start : "what is a flip/flop Question "

Laughing
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To your question, I don't have a NM Classic, so I'll just talk. The original Moog sequence had a button that was called, 3rd Row Control of Timing. The Moog sequencer had three rows, so if you model this, just hook up three NM sequencers in parallel with the same clock, and reset signals. Use a clock that has a frequency control input and take the output of one of the 3 sequencers and connect it to the FM input of the clock LFO. That's it.

Skipping is more complicated. Essentially, you just jam in a extra clock pulse to move the sequencer another step.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

gomidas wrote:

BTW no flip/flop on the NM classic, so I know where to start : "what is a flip/flop Question "


Well, a flipflop is easy. A flipflop is a thingy that goes on when you give it a pulse, then at the next pulse it goes off again, a bit like some lightswithces.

If you take a sample&hold, send that to a logic inverter and feed the inverter's output back into the sample&hold's signal input then have one (for example). Each time you send it a pulse it samples the inverse of what it's holding at that moment.

Verify you understand why and how that works.

It's very usefull for turning stuff on and off, for example.
Reader's exersise; look up "binary counting" and see if you can find the link to flipflops.

Advanced exersise; make a binary counter that counts to 8 and send that a series of pulses, for example from a lfo. Make every second unit trigger a highat sound, every fourth unit a snare and every eight unit a kick drum. Can you make a "droped one" (no highaht on the count with the kickdrum) using only logic modules?

Advanced exersise2; if we can make a sequencer out of a flipflop, can we also make a flipflop out of a sequencer?

Maybe more in a few days, I have tget back to my cdrom problem.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_logic.htm

There might be far better websites about TTL logic out there than this one. Anyway..

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.anaesthetist.com/mnm/logic/

That one looks fairly friendly to me, give that one a go.
Binary logic is the simpelest and fortunately it's also the most usefull to Nord owners.

There are more branches that have something to offer, particularly ones that also deal with time (which is quite usefull for composition, rithems and frequencies) and stuff that borders on math (particularly for comparing values). There is also stuff that can fry your brain, anything involving "recursion" or "labda" can fry your brain so stay away from those for a while. Also stay away from texts that involve too much phylosophy and weird words, you don't need those and they only mess it all up hoping to sound important. Pick texts aimed at first year C.S. people, not at aging phylosophers. All those texts involve different weird symbols. Never mind those, font designers don't like logicians. The core remains the same; there are only a few operators and it doesn't realy matter how you notate them.

See how far you can get with this.

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gomidas



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the links.
It seems that I've got to go back to school Laughing
But my Nord Modular deserve it so much,I definitely have to understand those logic commands.Logic can also be a good choice for those (like me) who wants to play LIVE with the NM without computer and try to get thru synchro problem (ex:let's say you want to make a 32 bar sequence for a long melodic phrase, when you chain 8 sequencer in series, the clock reset can produce weird stuff until the chain make an entire loop after the clock reset, so maybe it is better to trigger each one of them in parallel with flip/flop or to use note duration with only one or two sequencer modules).

I should manage note duration sequencer for the NM soon(I hope) and give you guys some feedback.

Thank you very much for your help
Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey, how are you doing with the logic?
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gomidas



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BAD Confused
I've been trying hard to do it but I ran into lots of problems...
In this patch I couldn't manage to reset the bincounter so the kick only play once in the sequence...
Any idea what am I doing wrong?

Thanks to worry, Kassen Smile


bincouter.JPG
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bad bincouter with no reset....
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This does look rather good to me, realy.

If there's something wrong with this I don't see it at the moment (that could happen; everybody makes oopses, including me).

Either way I think it's very encouraging that you got the link between flipflops and binary counters, you shouldn't say "bad" at all! Some of my "advanced asignments" were rather challenging, but hey, you *need" to solve some puzzles to get it all down and make it your own.

I fear I'm going to have to bounce around a little for two days (meaning apointments, dates, living out of a laptop bag, working at stray moments) so I won't be able to have a detailed look at your patch right now. I should be back in two days.

Hint about the reset; resetting a flipflop means making sure it stores a "zero", resetting a bincounter means all flipflops store zeros.
(hints; written in white on white to avoid spoilers, highlight to read)
Hint2; This means sending a trigger to the S&H while the input of the S&H is zero

Hint3; You can "break a logic cable" by patching it through a AND and feeding the other input a "one", as soon as that "one" goes to "zero" the cable is broken.
(end of hints)

Of cource there are always more then one ways to do something; some are cheap cpu-wise, others are easy on the memory of the chips and yet others are pleasant because they are easy to understand.

We are also eating rather a lot of resources here, building our own binary counter but sometimes there is no other way and of cource it's fun and educational. Well, at the least it's educational and I'm having fun, hope you do too. :¬)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

gomidas wrote:
BAD Confused
I've been trying hard to do it but I ran into lots of problems...
In this patch I couldn't manage to reset the bincounter so the kick only play once in the sequence...
Any idea what am I doing wrong?

Thanks to worry, Kassen Smile


.... just thought I should point out here, for anyone who isn't aware, that this S/H + Logic inverter idea also works just fine at audio rates, so when you clock the S/H from an audio waveform the output of the flip flop is a sub-octave sqaure wave. Very cheap way to add a sub osc signal to your patch!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

davep wrote:


.... just thought I should point out here, for anyone who isn't aware, that this S/H + Logic inverter idea also works just fine at audio rates, so when you clock the S/H from an audio waveform the output of the flip flop is a sub-octave sqaure wave. Very cheap way to add a sub osc signal to your patch!



... and here is an example. It uses a single Saw osc and generates two suboctave squares. Note the mixers that are used to combine the saw osc with LFOs before using the saw to trigger the S/H. This creates a phase mod / detune effect as the saw moves positive & negative, moving the point at which it crosses zero and therefore moving the relative phase of the sub oscs. Sounds nice on low notes.


One Big Saw.pch
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gomidas



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I LOVE this one. thumleft
That is definitely the kind of sound I like to play with Smile
Clear,subtle and powerful, that is were the NM is very good....
Very very nice sound, Dave!

Thanks
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

gomidas wrote:
I LOVE this one. thumleft
That is definitely the kind of sound I like to play with Smile
Clear,subtle and powerful, that is were the NM is very good....
Very very nice sound, Dave!

Thanks


Thanks. Notice the other trick in the patch - the Saw osc through the clipper module with a feedback mixer & LFO connected to the mixer. The LFO being added to the saw slowly shifts the saw osc positive & negative, which causes the clipper to chop off more & less of the top & bottom of the wave as it moves. This sort of 'mutates' the saw osc to a square-ish wave as it moves up & down. Patch the output of one of the clipper modules directly to an output module to hear exactly what it's doing (lower the voice count to "1" first !)

None of these tricks are mine, BTW. I learned a lot of these from the old NM list.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
None of these tricks are mine, BTW. I learned a lot of these from the old NM list.


There is so much to learn about nord modular...I really think it is science.
Those tricks are very clever, and encourage experiment during patching (patch mutator will have been useless in that situation Wink ).
It should take a lifetime to explore all the possibilities of the beast Twisted Evil

Thanks for sharing your knowledge...

See you around Smile
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