electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
Ondes Martenot Schematic
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: jksuperstar, Scott Stites, Uncle Krunkus
Page 1 of 1 [13 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8933
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:36 am    Post subject: Ondes Martenot Schematic Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, not quite.....

But I knew it would get your attention! Wink

This, is the schematic from an RCA Theremin. The Ondes is very similar, except the frequency is either swept by a Variable Capacitor or potentiometer. Has anyone got any ideas how a circuit like this one could be modified so that pitch and volume isn't swept or changed by body proximity, and could be changed via a VC or Pot?

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
andrewF



Joined: Dec 29, 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: australia
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

not quite the same but a couple of versions of a simple tube based instrument.
one from Judd's book, other from Douglas
both have vibrato and operated by keys......relays?


Judd tone source.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  122.05 KB
 Viewed:  545 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

Judd tone source.jpg



douglas.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  douglas.pdf
 Filesize:  76.14 KB
 Downloaded:  363 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8933
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Andrew, but it doesn't quite address the question, because for one, that circuit is a multivibrator, which produces a square wave (not the tone I am looking for). I've got an excellent book by some guy (I think it may also be a title by Douglas- but much older, called "An Electronic Organ for the home constructor" which has the Ondioline oscillator in it, but yet again, it's a multivibrator example. There is also of course Eric Barbour's example which produces a sawtooth, but both of these are not heterodyning designs, and it is this design that produces such a nice tone (or as far as I can work out).

I found a brilliant Australian website a couple of years back, with an example of a heterodyning sweep test oscillator- that worked at audio frequency. The bloke who owned the site, an academic, said he'd get back, but he never did, even after I tried to recontact him. I've probably still got the pdf- but where is another question!

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
slabman



Joined: Sep 01, 2005
Posts: 102
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v - what basic waveform are you looking for? Seems to me that two HF sine wave oscillators (one fixed, one variable) fed into a diode ring mod should give you heterodyne frequencies in the audio range. Of course the upper sideband will interfere with your neighbours' TVs but they'll just have to suffer for your art). It would be interesting to have a variable waveform on the fixed oscillator, perhaps with some expressive controller.

Veering slightly off-topic, how nice to see a mention of Fred Judd. Just thinking of the flexi-disc he recorded for Practical Electronics still makes me smile after all these years.

And... since you have the Alan Douglas and Judd books - I remember seeing in (I think) an Alan Douglas book, an obsolete continuous pitch controller instrument that somehow used a metal mesh cylinder wrapped around a resistive element. It's killing me that I can't remember where as I really want to build something like this, and it would be great for an Ondes-like device.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8933
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wouldn't a ring mod just produce a sum and difference of the two frequencies it was fed with, resulting in not such a nice sound? (I'm ring-modulated up to the eyeballs right now- but that's another story! )

This is the sound that I'm looking for;



The sound is very 'woody'. Almost hollow in nature. Could be a square but not quite.

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8933
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I found this too the other day. The 'synth' is a 1930's Hammond Novachord!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW!!!


_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
andrewF



Joined: Dec 29, 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: australia
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

slabman wrote:


And... since you have the Alan Douglas and Judd books - I remember seeing in (I think) an Alan Douglas book, an obsolete continuous pitch controller instrument that somehow used a metal mesh cylinder wrapped around a resistive element. It's killing me that I can't remember where as I really want to build something like this, and it would be great for an Ondes-like device.


I have access to both of Douglas's books, will scan the relevant pages if you like.


just to throw another one in the mix, I have been experimenting with 6BN6 & 6JH8 tubes as demodulators. It seems neon oscillators produce sine waves when pushed (20kHz), so i tried to use one as a fixed oscillator and another as variable, kind of a BFO. Found (and was warned) that neons get pretty unhappy at 20kHz and the signal amplitude gets very small (~2V in my case).
So will go back to trying a simple triode-based MV as the fixed oscillator and one of the circuits above as the variable (thyratrons are also not too keen to operate at 20kHz)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
slabman



Joined: Sep 01, 2005
Posts: 102
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v "Wouldn't a ring mod just produce a sum and difference of the two frequencies it was fed with". Exactly. So, if you had a 100khz fixed oscillator and another that varied from 100-120khz, the lower sideband would be 0-20khz and the upper is in the RF range and easily filtered out. So the result is a variable pitch and not the familiar klang produced when carrier and modulator are both in the audio range.

AndewF - is that means I didn't dream that controller, then yes, please scan those pages in. I was beginning to think a synth from a parallel universe had impinged on my subconscious.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8933
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You are right- and I am a fool! Laughing

THX Smile

It would be interesting what this would sound like, but in the meantime, I must go out now.

l8r.

Tom

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
RF



Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1502
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

It would be interesting what this would sound like...


I figured you were looking for that special sweet creamy tubey goodness... Smile

bruce

_________________
www.sdiy.org/rfeng

"I want to make these sounds that go wooo-wooo-ah-woo-woo.”
(Herb Deutsch to Bob Moog ~1963)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8933
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RF wrote:
you were looking for that special sweet creamy tubey goodness... Smile


Oh yes! Where? I WANT! Very Happy

I just love the idea that it is so pure and simple. The controller being the most important element, because after all, this is an instrument that must be played!

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
andrewF



Joined: Dec 29, 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: australia
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

slabman wrote:


And... since you have the Alan Douglas and Judd books - I remember seeing in (I think) an Alan Douglas book, an obsolete continuous pitch controller instrument that somehow used a metal mesh cylinder wrapped around a resistive element. It's killing me that I can't remember where as I really want to build something like this, and it would be great for an Ondes-like device.


now I have scanned it an read the article more closely, maybe this isn't what you are referring to. nevertheless the Diakon cylinder on pg63 looks like an excellent project


DOC090710.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  DOC090710.pdf
 Filesize:  1.45 MB
 Downloaded:  631 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
slabman



Joined: Sep 01, 2005
Posts: 102
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for those scans - you're right that it's not the object I am (mis?)remembering but it's still marvellous to see these. Those early synth pioneers were wonderfully inventive. To this day, nobody has picked up on things like the waveform controller in the Electronic Sackbut (I seem to remember that appears in the Douglas book too).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: jksuperstar, Scott Stites, Uncle Krunkus
Page 1 of 1 [13 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use