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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Beginner help needed controlling amplitude.
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BobTheDog



Joined: Feb 28, 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:13 am    Post subject: Beginner help needed controlling amplitude. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Everyone,

I would love some advise on this as I am at a loss of how to do this.

I am trying to covert the SoundSchool Analog synth from reaktor to my G2 as a learning exercise. I have attached my efforts so far.

The LFO and filter envelope can be used to modulate the pitch and symetry of the oscillators which I think I have worked out ok. I have mixed the LFO and Env sym values together is this the correct way of doing this?

My problem is with modulating the amplitude of the oscs and the final output useing the LFO and filter envelope, the modules are the ones in purple.

In reaktor the oscs have an amplitude input and I cannot get my head around how to do this in the G2.

Also how do I combine the optional LFO->Final amp, with the Amp envelope?

Any help on these issues would be really apreciated.

All the best

Andy


SoundSchool Analog Emulation.pch2
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SoundSchool Analog Emulation.pch2
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Mr_Smok



Joined: Apr 08, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think - try using "modulation amount" module.
connect to left input - osc signal and modulation signal to the higher input mod amount module.
p.s.respect for all patchers.
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BobTheDog



Joined: Feb 28, 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mr_Smok wrote:
I think - try using "modulation amount" module.
connect to left input - osc signal and modulation signal to the higher input mod amount module.
p.s.respect for all patchers.


Hi There,

Thanks for the reply.

I have tried the "modulation amount" module but the problem I get is that if you turn off the L->Amp signal then you don't get any output from the module!

Cheers

Andy
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I never saw this Reactor patch, but it doesn't sound much different from taking a three input mixer, putting a constant, the envelope and the lfo on it and taking the sum to a VCA with your osc on the other input.
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sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Bob.

If you want what I think you want, then see a patch that I posted here: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-6797.html

The amplitude modulation section is feint blue an at the bottom of the 2nd column of modules, labelled AM... You may need to download it to see the patching cables - they aren't shown in the picture.

Hope that helps,

Sheridan

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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks to you both for the advice, I will look into what you have both said.

Cheers

Andy
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ian-s



Joined: Apr 01, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Beginner help needed controlling amplitude. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:

The LFO and filter envelope can be used to modulate the pitch and symetry of the oscillators which I think I have worked out ok. I have mixed the LFO and Env sym values together is this the correct way of doing this?


Thats good, except technically you could connect directly to the mixer and use the mixer 2-1a switch/level controls.

BobTheDog wrote:

My problem is with modulating the amplitude of the oscs and the final output using the LFO and filter envelope, the modules are the ones in purple.


I shouldn't worry, very few real synths have modulatable waveform level controls (the NM1?). If you really need this, use a LevMult on the oscillator output. The LevMult is what Kassen called a VCA, which is the proper name for it. You can put one of these before the final output for the final amp modulation as well. You will need a level converted copy of the LFO signal (LevConv BiPol > Pos) for the level modulation, a negative going modulation will not give the expected tremolo effect.

The env modules on the G2 all have a built in vca, but this is hard wired to the Env control output and cannot be further modulated*, thats why you need the extra VCA in this case.

*the amp input sort of works but that is generally used for velocity control.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is it realy called LevMult? My bad then. I noticed I rarely remember the exact name of modules and call them by the name they had the first time I saw them in a system. Oops.

Anyway, it's basically all the same thing. Synths call them "VCA" and in many systems they are called mutiplier. In some programing language it might look like;

(Envelope + LFO + Constant) * OSC = Output

That's basically what that three input mixer and the VCA I mentioned would do. It's the same everywhere; don't let those silly manifacturers fool you. It may look a little different but nothing has changed since the 60's or 70's or so.

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry Kassen, I ment that VCA is the proper name for it, LevMult is a bit silly Rolling Eyes
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, that one seems to imply it only multiplies static levels. As soon as I'm in power all synth companies will be forced to use ISO standard names for everything.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Beginner help needed controlling amplitude. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
(the NM1?)


Yes, was quite handy.

(as inputs apparently consume no resources when not connected, I don't really understand why they [built in VCA's in VCO outputs] had to go)

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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all the input, I am off on holiday for a week now, I will play with it when I get back and get back to you with my results.

Thanks for the help

Andy
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: Beginner help needed controlling amplitude. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
g2ian wrote:
(the NM1?)


Yes, was quite handy.

(as inputs apparently consume no resources when not connected, I don't really understand why they [built in VCA's in VCO outputs] had to go)


Could be the anti-aliassing in the osc's? Of cource moving the problem doesn't solve it but that might be it.

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sebber



Joined: Aug 27, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobtheDog, funny enough I just did/do the same thing with the predecessor, the SoundforumSynth. I haven't posted it yet because I've got trouble with the MIDI, but the Synth itself is pretty much done, it needs some fine-tuning of the velocity. See the patch below.

Now, I didn't want to post this in the G2-forum, but while we're at it, could I have some beginners' MIDI help?
I want to use the G2 as a replica and a hardware controller for the SoundforumSynth (you can google that one easily up, it's in a book by Peter Gorges). The SoundforumSynth is a standalone application based on Reaktor. It has 48 controls, both knobs and buttons.
So far so easy, I've got an Midiman 1x1 and the communication works, but when I change the program on the softwaresynth not all of the buttons react properly.

Now the questions:
a) 48 parameters in a split second: too much for MIDI?
b) is there something I can do about it?
c) does trying different CC numbers or channels help?
d) why do only the buttons not always work, but always the knobs?

I swear to god, I didn't want to post this in the G2-forum!!

Best,
sebber


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SoundforumSynth be Peter Gorges, 99% done.

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jksuperstar



Joined: Aug 20, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

48 params (in terms of CC#s) should take 48ms to shuffle off to the G2. I know the G2 can do MIDI dumps of all of it's CC #'s, as well as receive these dumps back from a sequencer. I don't see how this would be any different. 1ms per message gives the G2 plenty of time to respond, also. I'd think if there's any problems, being dropped MIDI messages, it'd be with the USB1x1. But that's just my first guess. Various channels or CC numbers shouldn't make any difference. Buttons might not work if they are at the "end" of the dump, and the dump is getting corrupted 1/2 way through.

I'd try the following: Setup MIDI OX and put the usb1x1 in loopback (cable from [out to in]) and view the "Dump" from the program change in the monitor window. Repeat for [out->g2--(g2 thru)-> in]. See that messages are all there, and then check if they are corrupt. You can also use MIDIOX to capture this dump, then dump it into the g2 at any time. So if you do get good dumps from reaktor, try dumping this to the G2, and make sure the G2 gets it. If there's problems there, you can space out/slow down the dump that goes to the G2, just for debug to see if this is where the problem is.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I hear only good things about the MIDIman's, that shouldn't be it (though it could be whatever is listening to the driver?).

Asuming we are dealing with a patch that only does this controling business; some construction could be build that would force the patch to send the cc's at a slower pace, clocked, one by one. This is of cource asuming that there are no timing critical aplications involved that demand instantanious patch changes.... If it could take, say, half a second instead of a 20th then that would give the concerned elements a lot more time to react, decrease the chance of one corupted bit spoiling it all and half a second is still quite fast...

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