isn't it true that equal temperament did not come into general use until ~1900, a time often cited as the end of common practice?
that's debatable. Stuart Isacoff in his book about tunings states that Beethoven's late works indicate his use of equal temperament (Beethoven died in 1827). Others (Owen Jorgensen, for example) think equal temperament was not widely used before 1887 plus, many well-tempered tunings are so close to equal tempered ones to be almost not distinguishable. _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject:
Oh, Sorry, I keep for getting that some people think jazz and rock and roll are music. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject:
My statement was based on Jorgensen. And his arguments are based on the recorded history of the methods and practices of tuners. It is very well documented. At least, when I bought it in 1991 it was reviewed as the definitive work on the subject in English. I haven't read Isacoff's book or any other book on the topic since then so I may be out of date. Do you find Isacoff more compelling than Jorgensen?
seraph wrote:
... plus, many well-tempered tunings are so close to equal tempered ones to be almost not distinguishable.
I confess that’s true for my ears but that seems to vary greatly from person to person. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
when I bought it in 1991 it was reviewed as the definitive work on the subject in English
do you know that book is out of print and is worth lots of money?
try looking for it on amazon.com
I cited both books only because they differ on that subject. _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject:
Hey Howard!
If you're expecting a bottle of Black Bowmore in return I want to be there when you open it
I'll trade you my autographed copy of Atlas Shrugged for a shot. (Yea, once I was young and stupid, It's much better being old and stupid.)
Edit:
Oops! I lied. Just checked the going price on the Atlas Shrugged. I'll have to have the whole bottle. Oh thank you, thank you, thank you seraph. I'm going to start mining my library. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Oh thank you, thank you, thank you seraph. I'm going to start mining my library.
the pleasure is mine
you could ask me how I could quote Jorgenson not having, yet, the book but the answer is simple: it is the most often cited book about historical tunings _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:57 am Post subject:
Just wanted to throw in that music and all art shouldn't be diminished to just "create athmosphere/feelings". Nothing's wrong with intellectual music if you get an intellectual kick out of it. After all, when I go to an contemporary arts gallery I don't expect to get that Rachmaninoff piano&strings sound plush feeling either but some stimulus to survive the world as it is right now.
I really like the Pet Shop Boys album from about four years ago with the first song "Home and dry". Gives me the nice feeling that we've all (the Pet Shop Boys and I ) are grown ups now and are waiting for our (the Pet Shop Boys and mine) special ones to come back home and dry and not hanging 'round in bars drooling both from the mouth and the pants.
J.J. Cale gives me the same grown-up feeling, which is why I didn't really understand what's so special about him when I was younger.
Last remark: in Europe there's a lot of turkish elements in pop music now, with slightly different tunings. And they sell "oriental style keyboards" now for the same reason. Very interesting is arabian pop music (I know of Egyptian and Tunesian music). They use synthesizers and arabian instruments together and I really like the difference between the tuning. _________________ Fish don't swim. They dive.
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:57 am Post subject:
seraph wrote:
... it is the most often cited book about historical tunings
I'm not surprised. I found it an excellent book and highly recommend it. And really, I'll trade it for a bottle of Black Bowmore. Aubrey, my scotch sniffing dog, is not part of the deal.
seraph wrote:
you could ask me how I could quote Jorgenson not having, yet, the book but the answer is simple:...
Yea, sorry, I changed my assumptions after your second comment. I wasn't being a smart ass (this time only) by asking your opinion of the two. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Gipsies are very fond of second hand Korg keyboards (i series mostly) maybe because their tuning capabilities fit their music properly. _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
Aubrey, my scotch sniffing dog, is not part of the deal.
I am sure Aubrey could sniff a bottle of Black Bowmore buried underground and dig it up and, do not worry, the thought of you being a smart ass had not even touched me _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:38 am Post subject:
sebber wrote:
Just wanted to throw in that music and all art shouldn't be diminished to just "create athmosphere/feelings". Nothing's wrong with intellectual music if you get an intellectual kick out of it.
At present best evidence has it that: If you got a kick out of it, it wasn’t purely intellectual.
I certainly agree that all art shouldn’t be reduced to any one thing, regardless. But personally I don’t care for purely intellectual music. I prefer music in which intellectual processes are either conceptual elements working with the emotions as equals. Or better, is present as technique and transparently subservient to the emotional. The piece of music that moves me most deeply, provides most goose flesh per phrase, is (a good performance of) Bach’s Art of Fugue. For me it is, second only to the science of medicine, the greatest achievement of human civilization.
But my issue has to do with the ethical potential for music and the desperate situation of the world, both man’s and natures. I wish musicians of all styles would turn more toward helping humanity gain insights into itself and it’s problems. Even if all it does is to help a person be introspective, that would be a help (even if it only got them out of the bars sooner. ) More concrete but still abstract are Stein’s works that concern WWII. These are excellent examples of experimental music in which ethics and art are married without compromise to either. At this moment in time we, as human beings, must care about the consequences of our existence, and as artists if we do not address important issues, if we do not help people to care, then we will deserve the world that we will get. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham Last edited by bachus on Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:04 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:56 am Post subject:
Re: The End of Common Practice Subject description: recommended reading!
elektro80 wrote:
this is yet again a discussion of aestethics and a critique of the naugthy noisemakers of the 20th century.
you know what: for many "microtonalists" music is tonal, especially for those involved with Just Intonation. When you define a fundamental note 1/1 and start from there building your tuning system (with appropriate intervals etc.) your music is tonal. No surprise those "naugthy noisemakers of the 20th century" are seen as "tonally perverts" _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
Last edited by seraph on Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:48 am Post subject:
The Art of the fugue is one of the most intellectual works there is, you sure know that, and Bach's contemporaries didn't like it because of this. They liked Telemann, not Bach, whose music was widely viewed as "unnatural", "old-fashioned" and even "gruesome to the ear". The first print sold 30 copies in five years!
Making the world better through music - hm, very very difficult. Political music is difficult anyway, just listen to former Eastern block party hailing music. I like the critical approach better, concert hall music that tries to give me good vibes never works with me. It makes me angry actually. When I want to be emotionally moved, I turn to pop music, when I want to be intellectually moved I'm listening to classical and all the different sorts of avant-garde music.
I totally adore Evgeny Koroliov's recording of this piece! Very humble. _________________ Fish don't swim. They dive.
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:22 am Post subject:
sebber wrote:
The Art of the fugue is one of the most intellectual works there is, you sure know that, and Bach's contemporaries didn't like it because of this. They liked Telemann, not Bach, whose music was widely viewed as "unnatural", "old-fashioned" and even "gruesome to the ear". The first print sold 30 copies in five years!
What can one say other than that it is one of the most misunderstood of Bach's works. And most performances support that. But those by Glen Gould and Musica Antiqua Köln prove to my ears that misunderstanding is not universal. I can assure you that for some of us it is the most sublime experience in all music. Perhaps not in toto. The canons are a bit dry. But the first 12 or 14 of the fugues effect me more deeply, more strongly than any other music in existence. As a child I was drawn to Bach's organ music and recordings of Biggs and Dupre playing that music were an emotional solace that were virtual life savers which protected me from the noise, chaos and bullying of school, so my neuro-physiological links to music may be rather different than most. But that does not invalidate them. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:41 am Post subject:
sebber wrote:
Making the world better through music - hm, very very difficult.
Indeed, but perhaps one of the reasons the world is in its current shape is that too few are willing to make the effort.
sebber wrote:
Political music is difficult anyway, just listen to former Eastern block party hailing music. I like the critical approach better, concert hall music that tries to give me good vibes never works with me. It makes me angry actually.
I do not like any "political" music that I have heard. I'm talking about things like Britten's War Requiem, Bernstein's Kaddish and Stein's work.
And concert hall music that tries to give me good vibes either bores me or makes me want to puke. Music can emotionally move one to grief, regret, sorrow, compassion, moral courage and reconciliation ... to profound places within the human spirit. Places with which humanity desperately needs to have more contact. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:26 am Post subject:
Britten's war requiem: to me an aesthetic disaster. How can you write a piece that's supposed to be against the war, that you could as well use to push a war when you change the text? This is only film music that gives some "emotion" to a text. If the text were different, it would do the same thing.
I rather take the L'art pour l'art standpoint. I don't think art should be used in any way, not even to make the world a better place, at least not in such a direct manner. That implies that all music that promotes social well-being and sexual intercourse is not art music. Hm, I'll call it good music then. _________________ Fish don't swim. They dive.
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:48 am Post subject:
Re: The End of Common Practice Subject description: recommended reading!
seraph wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
this is yet again a discussion of aestethics and a critique of the naugthy noisemakers of the 20th century.
you know what: for many "microtonalists" music is tonal, especially for those involved with Just Intonation. When you define a fundamental note 1/1 and start from there building your tuning system (with appropriate intervals etc.) your music is tonal. No surprise those "naugthy noisemakers of the 20th century" are seen as "tonally perverts"
The concept of atonality is mainly a historical diversion and not a really useable musical concept. It is understandable that even composers used the term ( for a decade or four ) but it is not possible to get away from the fact that music is tonal no matter how you look at it. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
Britten's war requiem: to me an aesthetic disaster. How can you write a piece that's supposed to be against the war, that you could as well use to push a war when you change the text? This is only film music that gives some "emotion" to a text. If the text were different, it would do the same thing.
Britten´s piece must be understood within its historical context. It does have some filmscore narrative traits. It also does have some patriotic components. I think this piece is quite good, but it must be understood on its own terms. This fact does of course define this piece as true art. Art has substance and relevance. Keep in mind that what I am really saying is that this means a piece of art also ages and might become both worthless and meaningless. It is as we know, possible to think of old great artworks as refined gems with a kind of timeless quality. This is quite an interesting concept. It is just as valid and possibly more realistic to consider such artworks as lost memories from a time long forgotten. Enjoying art for its nice and curated feelgood vibes is probably OK, but this is hardly taking art seriously. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
MySpace SoundCloud Flickr Last edited by elektro80 on Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:00 am; edited 1 time in total
At present best evidence has it that: If you got a kick out of it, it wasn’t purely intellectual.
Very true.
bachus wrote:
I certainly agree that all art shouldn’t be reduced to any one thing, regardless. But personally I don’t care for purely intellectual music. I prefer music in which intellectual processes are either conceptual elements working with the emotions as equals.
The way I see it, pure intellectuality in music lacks opinion, direction, relevance and emotion. Art of The Fugue is nothing like that. Art of The Fugue is all magic and mojo. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:17 am Post subject:
sebber wrote:
I rather take the L'art pour l'art standpoint. :
OK, art should not serve purposes extrinsic to it. But in conceiving what is intrinsic one has to recognize that the creation of art is necessarily the result of human motivations, and that art has no meaning, significance or even any existence out side of its experience by human beings. So what actual semantic content is there in that phrase? _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
This is another highly interesting concept. Personally I think that the L'art pour l'art angle on art is both slightly dated and also highly political. This does not mean that I think art MUST be political and/or "serious".
Exhibit A:
_________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
One might say that the L'art pour l'art idea was a way to get that "lovingly frosted with glucose " feel. Keep in mind that the modern holistic understanding of art is truly a new ( read: recent ) invention.
The art for art´s sake thingie is however not to be ignored because it is a pretty remarkable invention and it has a place in history.
Gees electro80 this is really tuff*. Uh… since you posted the link and I am doing my best to grog it, could you help me with these last two sentences from section XI? (And keep it simple cause I really am feeling like a simple county boy trying to read this.)
Quote:
Thus, for contemporary man the representation of reality by the film is incomparably more significant than that of the painter, since it offers, precisely because of the thoroughgoing permeation of reality with mechanical equipment, an aspect of reality which is free of all equipment. And that is what one is entitled to ask from a work of art.
One problem being; in some styles of painting the artifacts of brush strokes are an important part of the aesthetic content. So I don't know if I just think he's wrong or I'm missing something, or....
Another is "...offers ... , an aspect of reality ... And that is what one is entitled to ask from a work of art." Seems to me there are an awful lot of assumptions/implications there unsupported by the preceding text all of which I've read but cant' at all say I'm clear on. Is he saying that is all one is entitled to ask? Does art necessarily represent an aspect of reality? Is my brain turning to jelly?
*At least when I get done with this I’ll be ready to return to the studio and not carp about carving that block of granite with a teaspoon. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
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