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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Thus, for contemporary man the representation of reality by the film is incomparably more significant than that of the painter, since it offers, precisely because of the thoroughgoing permeation of reality with mechanical equipment, an aspect of reality which is free of all equipment. And that is what one is entitled to ask from a work of art. |
Right, he has some rather messy sentences in there. Overall it is a nice introduction to some modern viewpoints and various other stuff. Benjamin is rambling on about film.. which of course is not music.. but what he does do is discuss art and classes of art within a holistic framework and the way he does that is pretty revealing.
Anyways, consider his:
| Quote: | | Mechanical reproduction of art changes the reaction of the masses toward art. |
| Quote: | | The greater the decrease in the social significance of an art form, the sharper the distinction between criticism and enjoyment by the public. |
| Quote: | | The conventional is uncritically enjoyed, and the truly new is criticized with aversion. |
| Quote: | Again, the comparison with painting is fruitful. A painting has always had an excellent chance to be viewed by one person or by a few. The simultaneous contemplation of paintings by a large public, such as developed in the nineteenth century, is an early symptom of the crisis of painting, a crisis which was by no means occasioned exclusively by photography but rather in a relatively independent manner by the appeal of art works to the masses.
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| Quote: | The characteristics of the film lie not only in the manner in which man presents himself to mechanical equipment but also in the manner in which, by means of this apparatus, man can represent his environment.
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| Quote: | By close-ups of the things around us, by focusing on hidden details of familiar objects, by exploring commonplace milieus under the ingenious guidance of the camera, the film, on the one hand, extends our comprehension of the necessities which rule our lives; on the other hand, it manages to assure us of an immense and unexpected field of action.
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Robert, it seems that this text by Walter Benjamin is unknown to you?
Intuitively it felt right to slam this one in at first, because this manifesto from 1936/37 is a modern classic and was quite influential. It is better known here in Europe as: Das Kunstwerk im Zeitalter seiner technischen Reproduzierbarkeit
I should have use this link: http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ge/benjamin.htm
and also the wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Benjamin
I stated in an earlier post that I think of L'art pour l'art as a highly political idea, that is partly why I chose Benjamin. It seems you agree with Susan Sontag on his writing style.
Benjamin was highly influenced by the then radical freudian ideas, the Brecht style marxism and of course Adorno´s critical theory.
Over here Das Kunstwerk im Zeitalter seiner technischen Reproduzierbarkeit is very well known and most art students will spend days studying the text. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject:
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It must be said that Walter Benjamin was ideologically struggling with the art ideas from the 19th century and he was always trying to grasp it all and seemingly he was closing in on some sort of unified theory. He never got there. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject:
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I should mention that I do not in any way subscribe to anything Adorno, Benjamin or Schelling. I am sailing my own ship. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject:
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| bachus wrote: | Another is "...offers ... , an aspect of reality ... And that is what one is entitled to ask from a work of art." Seems to me there are an awful lot of assumptions/implications there unsupported by the preceding text all of which I've read but cant' at all say I'm clear on. Is he saying that is all one is entitled to ask? Does art necessarily represent an aspect of reality? Is my brain turning to jelly?
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Brilliant! You have actually tried to both read and understand the text! Basically Benjamin is trying to say something about art and modernity which he obviously does not want to be pure constructivism. He sends himself into loops and pretensions and implications that simply won´t compute. He does however indirectly work with the larger implications of the middle stages of the L'art pour l'art ideology and he is both building a new case for meaning and purpose in art as well as trying to form a critique. I find this extremely fascinating and to me this text is a great perspective on L'art pour l'art. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject:
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try: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27art_pour_l%27art
Here Poe is quoted
| Quote: | | We have taken it into our heads that to write a poem simply for the poem's sake [...] and to acknowledge such to have been our design, would be to confess ourselves radically wanting in the true poetic dignity and force: — but the simple fact is that would we but permit ourselves to look into our own souls we should immediately there discover that under the sun there neither exists nor can exist any work more thoroughly dignified, more supremely noble, than this very poem, this poem per se, this poem which is a poem and nothing more, this poem written solely for the poem's sake |
The article is pretty good. You will see here why I think that ''l'art pour l'art'' is a political concept.
Interestingly enough the article also links to both critical theory and Walter Benjamin. I did in fact not expect that and no.. I did not write this Wikipedia entry. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject:
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But, after Schelling, Benjamin, Adorno and Poe, why not try reading this text again:
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The End of Common Practice
Initially, the effect of equal temperament on Western music was probably beneficial. Composers obtained the ability to modulate freely and to build complex chromatic harmonies that had been impossible under the meantone system. As a result, abstract instrumental music flourished as never before, yielding what is generally considered the "golden age" of Western music. Like a plant stimulated by chemical fertilizers and growth hormones, music based on equal temperament grew rapidly and luxuriously for a short period—then collapsed. If equal temperament played a prominent role in stimulating the growth of harmonic music in the common-practice era, it played an equally large part in its rapid demise as a vital compositional style. Twelve-tone equal temperament is a limited and closed system. Once you have modulated around the so-called circle of fifths, through its twelve major and twelve minor keys, and once you have stacked up every combination of tones that can reasonably be considered a chord, there is nowhere left to go in search of new resources.
This is essentially where Western composers found themselves at the beginning of the twentieth century. Everything that could be done with the equally tempered scale and the principles of tonal harmony had been tried, and the system was breaking down. This situation led many composers to the erroneous conclusion that consonance, tonality, and even pitch had been exhausted as organizing principles. What was really exhausted was merely the very limited resources of the tempered scale. By substituting twelve equally spaced tones for a vast universe of subtle intervallic relationships, the composers and theorists of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries effectively painted Western music into a corner from which it has not, as yet, extricated itself. Twentieth century composers have tried in vain to invent or discover new organizing principles as powerful as the common-practice tonal system. Instead, they have created a variety of essentially arbitrary systems, which, although they may seem reasonable in the minds of their creators, fail to take into account the capabilities and limitations of the human auditory system. These systems have resulted in music that the great majority of the population find incomprehensible and unlistenable.
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Doesn´t this sound strangely familiar?  _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject:
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| kkissinger wrote: | | "Soylent Green is People!" |
I have that movie somewhere. I simply had to have it in my collection.
| kkissinger wrote: | | ...music created by and for music-lovers can be relevant, entertaining, and even inspiring. |
Indeed and this is an insight of real importance. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject:
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| bachus wrote: | | one has to recognize that the creation of art is necessarily the result of human motivations, and that art has no meaning, significance or even any existence out side of its experience by human beings. |
Indeed. This is an excellent observation. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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bachus

Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:16 am Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | Brilliant! You have actually tried to both read and understand the text! |
No, it would have qualified as brilliant if I had understood it. But I think I get an E for effort
Seriously: This is a very interesting set of posts and links you have provided. And despite my jellied brain I sincerely thank you for them. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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seraph
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Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
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seraph
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Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:09 am Post subject:
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| Plato wrote: | | For the introduction of a new kind of music must be shunned as imperiling the whole state; since styles of music are never disturbed without affecting the most important political institutions. |
_________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
| Quote: | | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject:
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| seraph wrote: | | Plato wrote: | | For the introduction of a new kind of music must be shunned as imperiling the whole state; since styles of music are never disturbed without affecting the most important political institutions. |
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This is a take onconstructivism. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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bachus

Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject:
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Very true but this link is cross posted. We demand fresh meat  _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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elektro80
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject:
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Something else.
Let me think. OK.
I remember having to endure a singer who was convinced that staying in tune was an unjust demand. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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bachus

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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: |
I remember having to endure a singer who was convinced that staying in tune was an unjust demand. |
Seems to me that's common practice.  _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject:
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| bachus wrote: | | elektro80 wrote: |
I remember having to endure a singer who was convinced that staying in tune was an unjust demand. |
Seems to me that's common practice.  |
 _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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bachus

Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject:
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| sebber wrote: | | There's a terribly bad filter installed in commercial radio stations that's called "Best of the 70s, 80's and 90's and the best of today"-filter. One of the worst filters ever implemented, but obviously so cheap no radio station can ignore it... |
That wouldn't be called pandering to the least common denominator would it? _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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bachus

Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject:
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| bachus wrote: |
And concert hall music that tries to give me good vibes either bores me or makes me want to puke. |
I'm speaking of the musical equivalent of Fragonard's "The Swing” Not the likes of the Pastorale from Beethoven's 6th. And there is nothing wrong with the celebration of the ecstasies, mysteries and glories of existence. The point is not to give weight to the trivial but to focus on the profound to reveal the profound. The musician as shaman!
And for me even mathematics fails as appropriate substance for purely intellectual art. Such elementary constructs as the Reiman sum can be experienced as having true beauty, depth and mystery. How can a theorem reducible to that simple handful of algebraic axioms be beautiful and mysterious-- infinity! Math is beautiful! _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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seraph
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:06 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: |
I remember having to endure a singer who was convinced that staying in tune was an unjust demand. |
could we say the singer was "ill-tempered"  _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
| Quote: | | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:27 am Post subject:
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| seraph wrote: | | elektro80 wrote: |
I remember having to endure a singer who was convinced that staying in tune was an unjust demand. |
could we say the singer was "ill-tempered"  |
Yes _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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mosc
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:21 am Post subject:
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| bachus wrote: |
Gees electro80 this is really tuff*. |
Quite right... Exhibit A is much more to my liking and intellectual capabilities. _________________ --Howard
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kkissinger
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:08 am Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | I remember having to endure a singer who was convinced that staying in tune was an unjust demand. |
Hmmm.... many singers produce excellent tone and are right on pitch -- on the wrong beat. |
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bachus

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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:16 am Post subject:
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| kkissinger wrote: | | Hmmm.... many singers produce excellent tone and are right on pitch -- on the wrong beat. |
I much prefer that. At least you can pretend their improvising  _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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seraph
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject:
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| kkissinger wrote: |
Hmmm.... many singers produce excellent tone and are right on pitch -- on the wrong beat. |
I don't know why but this one reminds when I was taking a harmony class at the Conservatory. few days before the final exam the teacher asks questions to see if we are ready for it. he asks a clarinet player which is the closest key to C major and he nonchalantly answers: "C# major"
maybe these 2 things are both "common practice"  _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
| Quote: | | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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bachus

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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject:
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| seraph wrote: |
I don't know why but this one reminds when I was taking a harmony class at the Conservatory. few days before the final exam the teacher asks questions to see if we are ready for it. he asks a clarinet player which is the closest key to C major and he nonchalantly answers: "C# major"
maybe these 2 things are both "common practice"  |
For sure. it's called being a smart ass. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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