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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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 Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:54 am Post subject:
Why I Hate Corporate America |
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Why I Hate Corporate America
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trWcqxrQgcc&NR=1
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Fozzie
Joined: Jun 04, 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:40 am Post subject:
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I guess these are the very hateable downsides of unrestrained capitalism. I think it happens everywhere in western societies, not just the US of A. Protect your own interests and money. The more you have, the more you will go out of your way to protect it, even with morally wrong means. Problem is, it is hard to come up with a good alternative to this kind of capitalism that isn't oppressive.
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diatonis
Joined: May 01, 2005
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject:
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| Fozzie wrote: | | Problem is, it is hard to come up with a good alternative to this kind of capitalism that isn't oppressive. |
Actually I think the way is quite simple: a mixed economy in a democratic society with a rational informed electorate. It's the last bit that's the tricky part. 
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Danno Gee Ray
Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 1351
Location: Telford, PA USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Actually I think the way is quite simple: a mixed economy in a democratic society with a rational informed electorate. It's the last bit that's the tricky part. |
Aint that the truth! Part of the problem is that all that money spent to "inform the voting public" is really spent to disinform, or more precisely to propagandize. When spin is in the truth can't win I say. |
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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007
Posts: 6221
Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:03 am Post subject:
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| bachus wrote: | | Fozzie wrote: | | Problem is, it is hard to come up with a good alternative to this kind of capitalism that isn't oppressive. |
Actually I think the way is quite simple: a mixed economy in a democratic society with a rational informed electorate. It's the last bit that's the tricky part. |
On a related note, I wrote a simulation program that shows voters combining together in the voting process to achieve greater collective intelligence than they individually have. Actually it works both ways. If your voting public does a poor job of selection, below 50%, then they collectively act even stupider than they actually are, while if they are above 50% they act even smarter than they actually are. So in a nutshell, the voting process can be an effective selection method IF we have as you mention above a rational informed electorate. The program is available for download at my site for anyone who wants it.
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deknow
Joined: Sep 15, 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:02 am Post subject:
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well, i have a few thoughts here.
1. the "beauty" of our corporate system is that we know from the outset, without needing any other evidence or data, that the goal, the purpose of whatever they do, is to make a profit. we don't have to wonder about motivation.
2. one would think that investigative reporters would be sharp enough not to claim that monsanto owns nutrisweet...it was sold in 1999, and i don't believe that monsanto has any part of manufacturing aspartame (although i'm not 100% sure of that....it certainly doesn't own nutrisweet).
3. the bgh issue is one i've been following at least a little. it's one thing to claim that it is dangerous for humans to consume it (it most likely is). the problem is, at this point, there is no way to detect it's presence in milk. does that mean it's not in the milk, or does it mean it's hard to detect? i'm not sure.
in pensylvania, there was a recent ruling that one could not claim "bgh free" milk (or even made from bvt free operations) unless one could demonstrate the differance in lab tests. this was in response to "bgh free" milk selling for twice the price of conventional milk. personally, i'd like consumers to be able to choose milk that is from bgh free operations if they like....but the fact that (as far as i can tell), no one, no matter how much money is on the line, has been able to detect bgh in milk makes me wonder if there really is any health concern regarding bgh in milk...i don't know, but i do know that with the double the price, it is suprising that bgh isn't detected in the milk.
i do have a vested intrest in this concept. we produce honey from bees that are kept without chemical (or even "organic") treatments, and sell this honey at a big premium (there is basically no competition). if i had to have lab tests back up that there is a differance in the product to make such a claim, i would have to spend lots of $$ on testing...perhaps even more than i could make.
...personally, i don't have a problem with a news organization deciding what message and/or perspective they want their reporters to cover, and i definitely have serious questions about these reporters, given that they claim (or at least strongly imply) that fox was concerned that monsanto was going to pull nutrisweet ads, as monsanto does not own nutrisweet.
note1...i tried posting some notes within greaterthan and lessthan symbols...doesn't work properly.
note2...i see now that this "cover up" happened in 1999, when monsanto did own nutrisweet...but of course that makes this old news as well.
one final thought...would you rather have fox, cnn, bloggers, abc, nbc, cbs, newpapers, etc be competing on the basis of their content, or have the govt (fcc) rule what "truth" is, and disallow any news that doesn't conform to those determinations?
it's also worth noting that since this story was from 1999/2000, one should also look at cnn, and their deal with saddam allowing them to keep a news office in baghdad in exchange for favorable coverage of saddam, which was also happening at the same time.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9506E7DC173BF932A25757C0A9659C8B63
deknow |
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Danno Gee Ray
Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 1351
Location: Telford, PA USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject:
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Daen,
How are your hives doing these days? I've seen some dire news reports not long ago about massive die offs from some mysterious disease. I hope your hives are OK. |
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject:
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I think one of the best things is to make publications non-profit. That's a difficult, and almost impossible task, since then they'd be either dependent on
a. sales of their media
b. private donations
c. public donations
None of which really helps isolate the news from what the subject matter, which is what is at stake here. I don't agree with any news company that pushes it's own agenda, based on it's own corporate income/support structure. I believe it's possible to have a news source that is associated with a political agenda, ie-limiting it's reporting scope, without effecting the news it reports. To me, it's similar to the fact that corporations donate money to public officials for favors, in essence, bypassing the whole idea of democracy and the fact we VOTE to put rules in effect. It's all crap, and sites like digg.com and other public commentary is one way of taking collective research and making it more public, so the "truth" might be at least easier to find between the lines.
Personally, I think the root of the problem is the fact that in recent years of this corporate world, we all equate everything to money, and somehow it's "ok" that someone is driven by money, rather than simply doing the right thing. It's "ok" to make a personless corporation responsible, without simply pointing fingers at the PEOPLE behind the machine that made the decision to begin with. I don't think corporations are guilty of anything, really, it's the PEOPLE that make decisions inside those corporations. To fix this: Sue the people who made decisiions, not corporations, and stop corporations from being allowed to act "on behalf" of people, and donate money to persue their end. That's what govn't representatives are for. |
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:15 am Post subject:
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Bend over! Cover your eyes! Take it like a man! You need this! You *want* this!
Guh. Not good for mankind. Or, is it, manevil? |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Location: Up in that tree over there.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject:
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| deknow wrote: | well, i have a few thoughts here.
1. the "beauty" of our corporate system is that we know from the outset, without needing any other evidence or data, that the goal, the purpose of whatever they do, is to make a profit. we don't have to wonder about motivation.
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Most regrettably a large number have also made it clear to all who have objective vision that goal and purpose is entirely divorced from ethics. That's why we need extensive government regulation of business. Perhaps if the Republican policies had not turned loose the corporate wolves I'd hate them less.
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject:
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| bachus wrote: | | deknow wrote: | well, i have a few thoughts here.
1. the "beauty" of our corporate system is that we know from the outset, without needing any other evidence or data, that the goal, the purpose of whatever they do, is to make a profit. we don't have to wonder about motivation.
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Most regrettably a large number have also made it clear to all who have objective vision that goal and purpose is entirely divorced from ethics. That's why we need extensive government regulation of business. Perhaps if the Republican policies had not turned loose the corporate wolves I'd hate them less. |
Yes, we currently are absolutely in a state of business regulated government. |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:18 am Post subject:
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| jksuperstar wrote: | | ... a state of business regulated government. |
Best summation of the situation I've heard.
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EdisonRex
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject:
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more or less like it was back at the turn of the 19th to 20th century. History repeats itself. Next up: Depression!
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Oskar
Joined: Jul 29, 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject:
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| EdisonRex wrote: | | History repeats itself. Next up: Depression! |
But with better weapons...
(no appropriate emoticon found)
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject:
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| EdisonRex wrote: | | more or less like it was back at the turn of the 19th to 20th century. History repeats itself. Next up: Depression! |
In this "politically correct" age (funny how that term suddenly has new meaning?), we are "entering a recession". Funny also, in that we are always "entering" a recession that keeps getting deeper, rather than admitting we are "in" one already for 8 years. I think the economists have learned some lessons from Enron..."Hide your losses, and everything will be ok" (in my best boomy George Carlin voice). |
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Sam_Zen
Joined: Mar 08, 2008
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject:
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Support ++ before even watching the tube. Which was disgusting again.
But this is not restricted to the US. In Europe it's just done in a more subtle way.
I'm new here, so what's 'schmoozing' by the way?
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EdisonRex
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:56 am Post subject:
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| SamZen wrote: | | I'm new here, |
Hi Sam 
| SamZen wrote: | | so what's 'schmoozing' by the way? |
Here it means general discussion and or silliness essentially without restriction as to topic.
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laura woodswalker
Joined: Oct 06, 2007
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Location: phoenixville pa
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:01 am Post subject:
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[quote="bachus"] | deknow wrote: | well, i have a few thoughts here.
Most regrettably a large number have also made it clear to all who have objective vision that goal and purpose is entirely divorced from ethics. That's why we need extensive government regulation of business. Perhaps if the Republican policies had not turned loose the corporate wolves I'd hate them less. |
Basically everything that made decent life possible for the working class (weekends, minimum wage, workers compensation, social security) was put there by those "damn liberal" democrats.
Meanwhile repubs have done their best to take all of that away from us.
Nowadays the white collar cube worker is little better than a slave, oppressed with unlimited mandatory overtime that is often barely compensated with 'perks' like fricking PIZZA PARTIES. !!!!!!!!! I speak as a victim who has been traumatized over two decades. I worked in 'cutting edge" companies that used "new technology" (translation: computer programs that were full of bugs, never worked properly, and our hoity toity college-grad 'managers' didn't have a clue how to fix it.) I recall many many days of working till 10 at nite. Complain about it & you get fired for not having "team spirit". After all, they can always get more fresh college-grad meat to replace you.
I think there is a whole generation of tech and office workers who have been traumatized in this way. We SO need to have legislation that limits mandatory overtime to 4 hours a week.
We SO need a society where MONEY isn't the number one value!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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deknow
Joined: Sep 15, 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:28 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Nowadays the white collar cube worker is little better than a slave, oppressed with unlimited mandatory overtime that is often barely compensated with 'perks' like fricking PIZZA PARTIES. |
slaves can't start their own compaines...slaves can't quit their jobs...slaves can't choose to live a differant lifestyle. if you had a real feel for what being a slave is...being born into it with no options....being at the mercy of whatever treatement, food, and freedoms that your OWNER feels works best for him/her...having no options to change your position in life other than kissing the ass (or something else) of your OWNER....and NEVER GETTING PAID. if you feel owned by your job, that is your issue...it does not make you a slave. i've worked crappy jobs (from advertising agenices, to professional consulting, to cleaning toilets in offices), and i've always had the option to do something else. you don't like your boss? quit. you can't afford your lifestyle if you do so? guess what...you have enslaved yourself, and really have no one else to blame.
| Quote: | | We SO need a society where MONEY isn't the number one value!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
like what? religion (we've seen that before..and it aint pretty)? morality (how to divorce that from religion?), equality (are you planning on giving everything you have away until everyone has the same amount of stuff/money)? fairness (to whom?)? ...i'd love to see an example of something that fills this role better than money, i can't think of one. what else do we all have in common?
deknow |
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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007
Posts: 6221
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:38 am Post subject:
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| laura woodswalker wrote: |
I think there is a whole generation of tech and office workers who have been traumatized in this way.
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I am one of said traumatized white-collar workers. It's been years since I left that horrid industry and I still take medication to deal with the effect it had on my psyche. An organization's corporate culture descends down from the top and when the top is nasty, it's really nasty at the bottom. The infighting, spying, sabotage, and personal attacks that I observed and suffered were far beyond what someone in a civilized society should have to tolerate in order to have a career.
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Inventor
Stream Operator
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:48 am Post subject:
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| deknow wrote: |
like what? religion (we've seen that before..and it aint pretty)? morality (how to divorce that from religion?), equality (are you planning on giving everything you have away until everyone has the same amount of stuff/money)? fairness (to whom?)? ...i'd love to see an example of something that fills this role better than money, i can't think of one. what else do we all have in common? |
Self Improvement and the Enjoyment of the Moment plus the Joy of Creating and Giving are some of my main focuses these days. They may not be noble pursuits but they keep me occupied. At least I'm no longer pursuing wealth and subjecting myself to the psychological manipulation of managers who are trained to cultivate fear as a motivational tool.
Not that capitalism bothers me; you can have your wealth if you find a good way to get it.
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deknow
Joined: Sep 15, 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:56 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Self Improvement and the Enjoyment of the Moment plus the Joy of Creating and Giving are some of my main focuses these days. |
...anyone that knows me, knows that money is not my main focus or motivation..but i do need some to eat (even though we grow a goodly amount of our own food) and to live....as almost all of us do.
i think what you post above are absolutely noble...but they cannot simply replace money as a "number one value" for society....as some would mandate that 'self improvement' means following a specific religion, or adopting a specific set of values....we simply don't have all of these in common...money on the other hand...
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laura woodswalker
Joined: Oct 06, 2007
Posts: 463
Location: phoenixville pa
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:48 am Post subject:
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| deknow wrote: |
slaves can't start their own compaines...slaves can't quit their jobs...slaves can't choose to live a differant lifestyle. you don't like your boss? quit. you can't afford your lifestyle if you do so? guess what...you have enslaved yourself, and really have no one else to blame. |
Yeah yeah. Always someone to nitpick semantics and step in and defend the exploitation that goes on because "someone else had/has it worse".
"if you don't like it, quit". Yeah, the next 10 jobs you get will suck just as much. If you don't like them, quit and do what?? Sell dope? Big choice. Oh yeah, "start your own company". That's great if have lots of money to start with. I hear that most self-started companies fold within a few years. If your name is Bill Gates, you're the lucky exception, but don't think everyone else do what you do.
I read an article in Electronic Musician from 2005 from a guy who worked as a game audio programmer. he said that the killer deadlines and mandatory super overtime started as just Christmas and ended up being about 9 months out of the year. He says that this lifestyle "destroys health, relationships, families" etc. but the corpocrats had absolute disregard for this because they could always hire fresh new college grads who would then burn out after 2 years. So it's not just me.
| Quote: | | We SO need a society where MONEY isn't the number one value!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
like what? religion (we've seen that before..and it aint pretty)? morality (how to divorce that from religion?), equality (are you planning on giving everything you have away until everyone has the same amount of stuff/money)? fairness (to whom?)? ...i'd love to see an example of something that fills this role better than money, i can't think of one. what else do we all have in common?
deknow[/quote]
For starters, I'd like to see "a liveable planet" replace "money" as the #1 value. When I travel around my area and see the vast areas of wild land being bulldozed for yet another mall, I just cringe. Here in Valley Forge the former valley forge golf course is a prime example. Like we need ANOTHER mall in Valley Forge? What we really need is a nature preserve. I think it has been established scientifically that this planet actually NEEDS trees to produce oxygen. You can't breathe money.
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