Complex Midi setup - Help

[newbie_midi]

Hi all
as a newbie to Midi, complex Midi I have a question for you all.

After years of saving I was able to score some equipment from a friend who was in need of money and needed to move. Now i am trying to hook it up all this equipment together through midi and the computer.
This is the setup i have today and below I will explain what I want to do.


Access Virus Indigo Kbrd MIDI OUT -> PC audiophile 2496 (MIDI IN)
Computer audiophile 2496 MIDI OUT -> Access Virus Indigo MIDI IN
Access Virus Indigo MIDI THRU -> Microkorg MIDI IN
Microkorg MIDI THRU - Korg Prophecy MIDI IN
Korg Prophecy MIDI THRU - Korg Electribe MIDI IN
Korg Electribe MIDI THRU - Roland SH-32 MIDI IN

what I want to ask is
- Is this setup right?
- I want to buy a sequencer (maybe Ableton or Cubase) and be able to
control from Access Virus Keyboard all the other synths and record them in the sequencer. Is this setup correct for that?

I am kind of lost here and would appreciate your help, guys
thanks a bunch
Mark

[EdisonRex]

In general, what you are doing is basically correct for playback. You need to set channel ranges for each device.

Note that you can't actually save programs or any parameters from any of the devices that do not have midi out connected. Also note that your 16 channels of MIDI must be distributed amongst the chained devices.

You can use a midi hub to fix this, or you can leave it as you have it and just use the master keyboard to control everything.

Midi hubs are not horribly expensive (considering the kit you have) and give each device its own hose, so that you have 16 channels of MIDI available to that single device.


MIDI isn't that complicated, actually, once you get to know it. A single hose has 16 channels, much like an ADAT lightpipe has 8 channels of audio. Except MIDI is all events, like a player piano roll, and an ADAT is all about much faster streams of numbers representing sounds, like a laser reading 8 cds at once.

The chain has disadvantages, the biggest one being it gets congested easily. Midi is pretty slow (31k) so you can really clog up a single hose with controller events, pitch bends and the like. That's why there are midi hubs, to separate the devices.

hope this helps the understanding. What you have will work, initially, but you won't be happy with it for long.

[newbie_midi]

Hi EdisonRex
thanks very much for your reply and advices
I will check the midi hub and take this in consideration
Thanks again
Mark

[EdisonRex]

There are a number of manufacturers. Check out M-Audio, or MOTU for an initial look. Sizes range from 2 to 8 ports. Prices range, well, accordingly.

[newbie_midi]

Thanks again
one more question..do you think a midi thru merger will do the trick..?
there is one from midisolutions.com .. 1 midi in - 4 midi thru
thnx

[EdisonRex]

A MIDI merger serves a specific purpose, IMO. I don't think your application fits that purpose, although it is possible some others here may think it could. To me, a MIDI merger is for taking multiple outputs and merging to one input - however only if you can avoid a MIDI feedback loop with it. In your case, any scenario I come up with using MIDI merges either adds a lot more cables, doesn't match what you have for inputs at the computer, or causes feedback loops.

M-Audio makes a nice 4-port MIDI to USB hub, the 4x4. That's the sort of thing you need and it's not much more than a merger.

Oh I forgot to ask, are you on a Windows PC, Linux PC or Mac?

[newbie_midi]

I am using windows.
i've been checking the m-audio website and the one you talked
about it is the midisport 4x4 right?
so i got a bit confused how to hook it up the gear. I won't be using the midi from the audiophile anymore? i should be using only the midisport?
sorry bugging with a bunch of questions
thankx a lot
Mark

[EdisonRex]

With a Midisport 4x4 you would have a total of 5 MIDI hoses available for equipment. Since you have 4 already, this leaves one for guests. Or new kit.

So for example you could choose to hook the Virus Indigo keyboard (sounds like this is your master keyboard) to the Audiophile like you have now, and then each of the others (Microkorg, prophecy and Electribe) would each connect to a port (in, out to out, in) on the 4x4. You'd have, as I mentioned, one free port.

There are other configurations possible with less ports (say a 2x2) because if I remember the Microkorg isn't really polyphonic over 16 channels, but for the sake of being able to program things and save the programs to a library, and for the sake of being able to have your controllers work, I'd keep things one to a channel.

You should keep in mind that there are 16 MIDI channels available to any hose (port). Equipment that can actually use 16 channels polyphonically should get their own port. Your master keyboard should get its own port.
If you have instruments that don't need to transmit, they can be daisy chained.

To give an (arguably) extreme example, my studio is set up as follows:

I have a Mac and a PC. The Mac has a MOTU midi express 128, which has 8 ports (I am using the term "hose" to describe a set of 16 channels, but "port" to describe the in/out MIDI pair). The PC has a MidiSport 2x2. I use the Mac as the studio hub.

Port 1 in/out is attached to my Ensoniq TS-12. This is my master keyboard and is not only capable of transmitting on 16 channels, but it can play on any of them, or theoretically all of them at a time, if it had enough notes available.

Port 2 in/out is attached to my Akai S-6000 sampler. Again, this is a multitimbral polyphonic device - which also has a separate USB connection back to the Mac for me to load and save samples with. However, because I don't usually use all 16 channels at once, and I use the USB to do any of the heavy work, I have my Dave Smith Poly Evolver in a ring on this port, so the first 12 channels of the hose are seen by the S-6000, and the last 4 channels by the Poly Evolver. The MIDI chain goes Port out -> S6K in -> S6K thru - PEK in -> PEK out -> Port in. This way I can load dumps from the PEK.

Port 3 is connected to an EMU Procussion. Again we're multitimbral and multichannel polyphonic. Simple in-out loop.

Port 4 is connected to an EMU Morpheus. Again, multitimbral, multichannel. But I also have my Hartmann Neuron grouped with it. In this case, because I talk to the Neuron via LAN, I don't need its MIDI out, so it's first in the loop. I do need to talk to the Morpheus, and I need to receive from it, so it's second in the loop. So, port out -> Neuron in -> neuron thru -> Morpheus in -> morpheus out -> port in. Morpheus hears 12 channels, the Neuron hears the top 4.

Port 5 is connected to a Roland JV-1080. Once again, 16 channels available. In practice only 3 at a time would ever be used, because that's all the audio outputs it has (6), but for now it's good to leave it on its own.

Port 6 is where all of the real fun is. The analogs all live on this port, plus my piano module. Nothing really talks back, and most everything is either single channel or no more than 4 channels. So this port hosts the P-55, Micro-B, Nord Lead, SE-1X, and the Kenton Midi/CV converter in a big in -thru loop. The P-55 has 3 channels, the Nord has 4, the Kenton has 2 channels, and everything else has one.

Port 7 is a bit more complicated because it's where the PC's MIDI mates up with the Voyager and the Mac ports. So I use a MIDI merge to handle this - Port out -> MIDI merge with PC port out, -> Voyager in. Voyager out goes to the PC port in, the thru heads back to the Port 7 in, so that the PC's MIDI output shows up for recording on the Mac. Kind of a waste of one channel but it means I can run Reason, if I ever needed to and it could be clocked by the Mac.

Port 8 is dedicated to the Roland VM-7200 mixer. Automation between DP and the mixer (which can do its own automation as well) is pretty bandwidth heavy, and having MTC and MMC as well eats up the hose's bandwidth.

As you can see there are numerous reasons each port is used and set the way it is - and I have specific problems to solve, which you would not in a much simpler setup. But as an example for when to use a merge, this explains that, as an example for when to gang up kit, it explains that, and as an example for when NOT to gang up kit, it is an example of that as well.

We won't get into the audio path. Suffice it to say the VM-7200 is fairly heavily committed.

[newbie_midi]

hi EdisonRex
that is a great explanation, thank you so much, I can understand better now. Following your advice I will definetly get a midisport 4x4.
So I will hook up as follows, see if I got that right :

Access Virus controller OUT -> PC Audiophile IN
PC Audiophile OUT - > Access Virus controller IN

Midisport will be hooked up to PC's usb, right?

Midisport port 1 IN-OUT = Microkorg
Midisport port 2 IN-OUT = Prophecy
Midisport port 3 IN-OUT = Electribe
Midisport port 4 IN-OUT = SH-32


One last thing is i will be using ableton or cubase or a software like that, so It will be all visible by the software? that i can't figure it out how

thanks a lot !
Mark

[EdisonRex]

Yes, that's exactly it. I forgot you have an SH-32 in there too.

Ableton or Cubase will know about the midi ports because they will appear as separate choices - when you install the driver software for the MidiSport, it will appear as a separate MIDI device in Windows control panel (Multimedia devices). Windows is smart enough to route to multiple MIDI devices (the drivers help too). So your sound card's MIDI will appear as one choice, use that for your master keyboard, and the other ports will appear as choices.

Yes, this will be connected via USB to your computer.

[newbie_midi]

Awesome, man!
I don't know how to thank you about all the info!!!
Thanks again!
Mark

[EdisonRex]

Check back after you've done all the setup. You will probably have more questions

Have fun!

[Antimon]

The good thing about using Windows with a big MIDI-interface is that you can download MidiOx (http://www.midiox.com/) for free, and do all extra routing in there in a fairly intuitive way. MidiOx is very good for all kinds of MIDI stuff - I miss it terribly on my Mac.

/Stefan

[newbie_midi]

hi guys
EdisonRex, just got a midisport on craigslist for 150 CDN, pretty good I will hook it up on the weekend and see how it goes

Stefan, thanks for the tip, i will definetely check that software out

Mark