software and hardware modulars integrations?

numbed · Joined: Oct 20, 2007 Posts: 17 Location: UK

hi,
new here and really impressed of whats going on in here!
i figured its the right place to ask this..

i have been twiddling with software modulars for almost 10 years now.
im using max/msp; Reaktor and Modular III with flexor units from the pulsar Scope4.

for a long time i've been wanting to get myself some kind of Hardware analog modular system.

im sure you all appreciate the power of all those softsynths and the endless possibilities that couldn't be achieved with a mountain sized of a hardware system.

but its their sound that doesn't quite SOUND like the real thing.
Except the Flexor which is AMAZING!!! and is nothing like any other soft or digital mod its even takes the Nords in most cases..

but still, raw analog will be RAW analog!

as im pretty broke these days i was looking for a way to get me a fully working modular for less money, so im going to DIY it but thats not enough.
for years i thought i could control/modulate the analog modules Through my AD/DA converters (A16 Ultra).
that way i wont need to get/build the LFOs, Envelopes and such..
and will use my endless amount of whatever i want as modulation sources from these softsynths.

but i made this test a couple of years ago, and it seems that its pretty impossible to send/receive low frequencies and Envelopes Through my converters as they cut the "bad" DC from the signals end totally kill the modulation signal... if it is high freq stuff it could work...

here is an illustration of the signal being recorded:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

Left channel is a recording of Modular III modulators straight to Soundforge (via internal routing in the Pulsar working zone SFP)

Right channel is sent out to my converters and being recorded back.

is there a DC filter "free" DA/AD so it wouldn't do this?
i think it could save us all allot of money roomspace and ..girlfriends.

numbed · Joined: Oct 20, 2007 Posts: 17 Location: UK

here is a better view..
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2272/testsofdasignalspq8.jpg

blue hell

blue hell · Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:41 am Post subject:

Some links :

G2 related discussions about DC coupling :

http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=coupled+audio&t=12303
http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=coupled+audio&t=1716
http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=coupled+audio&t=3984

Example DA/AD card :

http://www.icpdas.com/oldweb/products/card/pci-1602.htm

jksuperstar · Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:36 am Post subject:

If you have a cheap sound card (or are daring), you can do similar mods to any sound card. It's typically the series cap on the input signal that filters DC. However, DC can blow a converter, so it should have some form of protection (optoisolation, etc).

another method, if you know your signals are bandwidth limited, is to FM or AM modulate them, send them through the DAC-- then demodulate them on the other side. There is a project, openeeg on sourceforge, which attempts to make an EEG (brainwave detector) for use with a soundcard. brainwaves are typically very low frequency, so this is the method they use to get through the soundcard. 80db signal...that's about 14-15 bits of dac, good enough for a lot of low-freq work. Though, that's also dealing with a lot of gain on really low level signals, so you would probably get better results with audio.

numbed · Joined: Oct 20, 2007 Posts: 17 Location: UK

hi,
thanks for your interest and response guys!

well for start im pretty sure my "test" isnt so accurate cuz:

as you said

blue hell · Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject:

numbed · Joined: Oct 20, 2007 Posts: 17 Location: UK

hah! i try it with an Amp Mod and it got to be ALMOST accurate....

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1696/testsofdasignalswith22kuq7.gif

how do i deAmp now??
thanks jksuperstar for the original idea.

so Blue Hell,
your saying straight up, that if i move them output capacitors it will work flawless?? that simple??

that will be the best and most effective way i think..
you believe one can check this without harming the circuit and solder out stuff? like checking it from an earlier point on the board?

Forums Kick Ass.

blue hell · Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject:

numbed · Joined: Oct 20, 2007 Posts: 17 Location: UK

.....waiting for an oscilloscope, maybe i can crack something...
if it still concern someone, il post whatever answers i get.

also thinking about an audio to CC plug, out to a midi to cv converter...
do you think il get the same result as regard to resolution?

thanks

blue hell · Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:22 pm Post subject:

REwire · Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:45 am Post subject:

I use a Modular Midi to CV converter that has one Midi Input and a bunch of CV Outputs. I can take CC#'s in and send CV to any number of modular controls. The 127 units of CV values going to -5 to +5v or -10 to +10v gives very precise control from midi controllers like my Korg Kaoss Pad, Midi clock driven arpeggios coming from my VirusC or envelopes I create in Cubase.

Also, an Envelope Follower in a modular can take sound and amplitude as the basis for modulations so that would open up more possibilities for live control from any sound source and avoid these DC problems.

numbed · Joined: Oct 20, 2007 Posts: 17 Location: UK

Hi REwire,
thanks for the info,,
i was thinking about that idea, as i mentioned earlier.. but didnt know of any one that do it, i mean, is it fast enough for regular not padish ADSRs??

the only thing left for me to do, is to check if i can send an envelope to my sherman II throw my Pulse plus CV out..

if that be the case, you guys recommend Kenton Pro2000??
or is there something cheaper/more cost effective/more outputs..

im not sure what you meant about env follower.. i have one in my sherman,
you mean i can trigger it and use the ADSR output? im aware of that.
its just that i want MORE facilities (and envelopes) for creating complex modular patches at low cost and get the character from the filters and OSCs and focus my money one these kind of modules.

REwire · Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject:

The Pro2000 has 6 Aux CV outputs, so you could use that well.

As for an Envelope Follower; the one in the Sherman creates Envelopes based on the Amplitude of the incoming audio. In modular form, like the Doepfer A-119, you can plug in a microphone for example and say "Boom" and make a Filter open and close real fast.

Essentially, the Midi Route is necessary if you want to use knobs or other midi generating data in software or other synths. The Envelope Follower is if you want to control the modular from sounds like voices, drum loops or anything.

iPassenger · Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:16 am Post subject:

on a similar note my CS15 has a trig level, which triggers its internal envelopes from a high enough input audio signal, and hence beats can trigger the envelopes etc...Sounds sharp enough to me, tho i dont think the CS15's enevelopes are exactly break neck speed.

daantje · Joined: Dec 04, 2006 Posts: 2 Location: Den Haag

Hi,
Have you ever thought of using OSC? (and an interface like http://www.koncon.nl/ipsonlab )
I don't know if Modular III understands OSC. But max and reaktor do, right?
This way you will probably have enough ins and outs... I've been using it for a couple of weeks now,
and it seems stable enough even for slow envelopes... (Or maybe it's easier for me to get help with this stuff since I work there Very Happy

)
Most people I know use a doepfer MCV 24 for this stuff, but I find your approach way more interesting!

varice

I'm sorry that I had not seen this topic earlier.

blue hell

numbed · Joined: Oct 20, 2007 Posts: 17 Location: UK

they'v made it before me!
the motu VOLTA looks very good..

http://www.macmusic.org/news/view.php/lang/en/id/7483/

thats exactly what i wanted.