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ericcoleridge
Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 889
Location: NYC
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 Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:34 am Post subject:
CGS Diatonic Convertor
Subject description: Anyone built it? |
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I have been reading and thinking about trying this circuit every time I place an order with Ken--but haven't ordered yet.
I'm wondering what peoples experience has been with it. It works a little like a quantizer, no? |
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sneakthief
Joined: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 569
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:11 am Post subject:
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it's output may be quantized to various notes, but i wouldn't call it a quantizer per se, since it doesn't quantize CV voltages. instead, the incoming gates choose the notes while the CV input act as note offsets.
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otherunicorn
Joined: May 11, 2008
Posts: 136
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject:
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The diatonic converter is an add-on module for the infinite melody, the purpose being to constrain the outputs of the latter to a diatonic (Major/Minor) scale. It can also be used on the Gated Comparator, or if you really want to, with assorted LFOs, though that really is pushing the idea a bit far. It is NOT a quantizer.
Ken
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The Alison Project
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:51 am Post subject:
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I included the Diatonic Converter in my Infinite Melody as per Ken's wiring diagram on the page, definitely a great addition to the Infinite Melody if you have the room, if not make the room.
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sneakthief
Joined: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 569
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:13 am Post subject:
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as someone who leans more toward song-making, using it with the gated comparator seems more interesting to me because the results are less random.
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Scott Stites
Janitor
Joined: Dec 23, 2005
Posts: 4127
Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 7:55 am Post subject:
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I'm thinking the Diatonic Converter would be a sublime way to get an additional voltage out of the Klee by hooking the gate bus into it.
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e-grad
Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 142
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:08 am Post subject:
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The Diatonic Conv. is on mind, alas, my mind is not very good in electronics.
If I use the Diatonic Conv. as a stand alone module the CV to convert goes into the Root In or am i mistaken here?
I also like some feedback on one of my current idea for a rather huge highly normalized module:
1) Build a Gated Comp.
=> Hard wire it's 's 8 shifted gate outs to
2) one Diatonic Conv and
3) one Gate Sequencer CV Adapter
=> Hard wire 3) to
4) another Diatonic Conv.
To my understanding I should use the DC-Mixer inbetween 1) and 3). Is that right?
The idea is that I can use the original outs of the Gated Comp., Gate Seq. CV Adapt. and the Diatonic Conv. outs simultaneously.
What do you think about such a module? |
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guitarfool
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Maryland
Audio files: 8
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:50 am Post subject:
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| e-grad wrote: | | If I use the Diatonic Conv. as a stand alone module the CV to convert goes into the Root In or am i mistaken here? |
Nope. The Diatonic Converter is basically a D/A converter - so it wants 6 logic inputs (you don't have to use all 6, but using only one would be booooring). The "Root In" merely sums a CV input to the output. The closest thing to a standalone module would be to drive it with an A/D converter, which would give you a diatonic CV quantizer. I did this in another thread with the new Ray Wilson (MusicFromOuterSpace) Quantizer.
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-28505-25.html
| e-grad wrote: | I also like some feedback on one of my current idea for a rather huge highly normalized module:
1) Build a Gated Comp.
=> Hard wire it's 's 8 shifted gate outs to
2) one Diatonic Conv and
3) one Gate Sequencer CV Adapter
=> Hard wire 3) to
4) another Diatonic Conv.
To my understanding I should use the DC-Mixer inbetween 1) and 3). Is that right?
The idea is that I can use the original outs of the Gated Comp., Gate Seq. CV Adapt. and the Diatonic Conv. outs simultaneously.
What do you think about such a module? |
Oooh, never thought of using the GS CV Adapter with the Gated Comparator! That would give you a kind of mini mutant Klee Sequencer  I think it would be worth doing this alone. 
You'd want some way of slowly stepping one bit through it (slow clock into the Gated Comp. with a single short pulse to the input?) for the purpose of tuning the 8 pots.
Item (4) is out, unless you wanted to just drive it off of different gate outputs from the first one. That would give you pseudo-random harmonic intervals with the output from (2). Might want to think long and hard about how to treat the Octave Select bits. If they were the same, the intervals would be smaller. Lots of options there.
And yes, you can use a DC Mixer to combine the outputs. |
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neandrewthal
Joined: May 11, 2007
Posts: 672
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:18 am Post subject:
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Our resident CGS guru is already on it
| andrewF wrote: |
thinking about it more, just patch the regular stage outputs of a gated comparator into a CGS DC mixer and it will work just as well!
Crikey! I'll just go and try it 
EDIT - yep, works great! |
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e-grad
Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 142
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:33 am Post subject:
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guitarfool, Thanks a lot for your detailed reply. Highly appreciated.
| guitarfool wrote: | | And yes, you can use a DC Mixer to combine the outputs. |
The idea to combine a Gated Comp with an Gate CV Adapt. stems from some forum's contribution. IIRC somesone suggested to insert a mixer to prevent the Gate Seq. from overload since several gate outs of the Gated Comp. could be high at the same time. |
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numbertalk
Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 992
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:46 am Post subject:
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| guitarfool wrote: | | The "Root In" merely sums a CV input to the output. |
So Mix/"Root" is for an external CV input jack? What does this CV (along with optional D & E inputs) control/how does this work exactly? On the site it says:
The key in which the notes are played is determined by sending the appropriate voltage into the unit's mix input, or mixing the output of the unit with other voltage sources externally.
So it sounds like Root/Mix input expects something like the 1V/Oct note CV out from a keyboard controller? If so, then could someone elaborate on/give me an example of what would go into D & E? (on the site it says D & E are for "expanding the offset mixer if required. Additional input resistors can be added here.")
Also what exactly do the Note Span and Maj/Min inputs expect and how do they each work exactly?
Planning to incorporate one of these with an Infinite Melody and another with the MFOS Quantizer.
Thanks! |
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guitarfool
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Maryland
Audio files: 8
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:16 pm Post subject:
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| numbertalk wrote: | | guitarfool wrote: | | The "Root In" merely sums a CV input to the output. |
So Mix/"Root" is for an external CV input jack? What does this CV (along with optional D & E inputs) control/how does this work exactly? On the site it says:
The key in which the notes are played is determined by sending the appropriate voltage into the unit's mix input, or mixing the output of the unit with other voltage sources externally.
So it sounds like Root/Mix input expects something like the 1V/Oct note CV out from a keyboard controller? If so, then could someone elaborate on/give me an example of what would go into D & E? (on the site it says D & E are for "expanding the offset mixer if required. Additional input resistors can be added here.")
Also what exactly do the Note Span and Maj/Min inputs expect and how do they each work exactly?
Planning to incorporate one of these with an Infinite Melody and another with the MFOS Quantizer.
Thanks! |
Adding a voltage to the Diatonic converter can be used to "transpose" the output to another key. You can just add a pot on the panel to do this. Or you can just adjust the coarse/fine on your VCO. I didn't bother to use this feature.
Note Span allows you to override the voltage reference - ie; so that it is no longer 1 volt per octave. You could also attenuate or amplify the output to do this. I didn't bother to use this either.
The Maj/Min input is a logic signal. It takes a gate type of signal. I added a panel switch, fed from the +15v through a 100k resistor, normalled to the jack for this. Flipping the switch then feeds a positive voltage or nothing to it when nothing is plugged into the jack. It's fun to feed an LFO or slow random voltage into the quantizer, and a much slower LFO into the Maj/Min input. |
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numbertalk
Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 992
Location: Austin, TX
Audio files: 5
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:22 am Post subject:
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| guitarfool wrote: | | Adding a voltage to the Diatonic converter can be used to "transpose" the output to another key. You can just add a pot on the panel to do this. Or you can just adjust the coarse/fine on your VCO. I didn't bother to use this feature. |
So do you mean adding the voltage via D or E, or the Root input itself - did you not bother even adding a Root input you mean? Does Root expect the 1V/Oct output from a CV keyboard? What if you're driving this from a MFOS Quantizer (which I realize you have done) and that is being driven by a sequencer (in other words the keyboard is not being used as a controller at all)? Do you still need to use the keyboard for the Root input? What happens if there's nothing input here?
| guitarfool wrote: | | Note Span allows you to override the voltage reference - ie; so that it is no longer 1 volt per octave. You could also attenuate or amplify the output to do this. I didn't bother to use this either. |
What's an example of what kind of signal you might input here? Would you also have the 1V/Oct input at the Root input?
| guitarfool wrote: | | The Maj/Min input is a logic signal. It takes a gate type of signal. I added a panel switch, fed from the +15v through a 100k resistor, normalled to the jack for this. Flipping the switch then feeds a positive voltage or nothing to it when nothing is plugged into the jack. It's fun to feed an LFO or slow random voltage into the quantizer, and a much slower LFO into the Maj/Min input. |
So you used a SPST toggle here (not a momentary) with the throw connected to +15V through a 100K resistor and the pole connected to the switch lug on the Maj/Min jack? And by the slower LFO for this input you mean a pulse wave LFO, right, since it expects a logic/gate type signal? Sorry for the dumb questions, just working with logic circuits is still really new to me, so trying to get my head around how the circuit works.
Thanks!!!
Last edited by numbertalk on Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:32 pm Post subject:
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| guitarfool wrote: | The Diatonic Converter is basically a D/A converter - so it wants 6 logic inputs (you don't have to use all 6, but using only one would be booooring)... ...The closest thing to a standalone module would be to drive it with an A/D converter, which would give you a diatonic CV quantizer. I did this in another thread with the new Ray Wilson (MusicFromOuterSpace) Quantizer.
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This might be a stupid question - but you're only using the A/D part of the MFOS Quantizer? Which means you could've used basicly "any" A/D?
I'm playing with the thought of just getting myself a simple A/D chip and a diatonic converter and play around with the two of them...
The result might not be a "normal" quantizer, but close to? And hopefully it could generate something interessting? |
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guitarfool
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:27 pm Post subject:
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| zthee wrote: | | guitarfool wrote: | The Diatonic Converter is basically a D/A converter - so it wants 6 logic inputs (you don't have to use all 6, but using only one would be booooring)... ...The closest thing to a standalone module would be to drive it with an A/D converter, which would give you a diatonic CV quantizer. I did this in another thread with the new Ray Wilson (MusicFromOuterSpace) Quantizer.
|
This might be a stupid question - but you're only using the A/D part of the MFOS Quantizer? Which means you could've used basicly "any" A/D?
I'm playing with the thought of just getting myself a simple A/D chip and a diatonic converter and play around with the two of them...
The result might not be a "normal" quantizer, but close to? And hopefully it could generate something interessting? |
That would acheive the same end, but Ray Wilson already has a PCB that's relatively cheap and uses no expensive or exotic parts. And I'm basically lazy |
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guitarfool
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:37 pm Post subject:
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| numbertalk wrote: |
So do you mean adding the voltage via D or E, or the Root input itself - did you not bother even adding a Root input you mean? |
I did not use E, D or root inputs. If you are feeding, say, a VCO from the diatonic converter output, you can do the same thing by adding whatever you were going to put into the Mix/root input to another CV input of the VCO.
| numbertalk wrote: | | Does Root expect the 1V/Oct output from a CV keyboard? What if you're driving this from a MFOS Quantizer (which I realize you have done) and that is being driven by a sequencer (in other words the keyboard is not being used as a controller at all)? Do you still need to use the keyboard for the Root input? What happens if there's nothing input here? |
Root expects a voltage. Whatever you want to give it. It can be a multiple of 1/12 volts (a chromatic amount) or even something much less than that (to just "bend" a note a little). If you feed it 1 volt, the diatonic converter output goes up by one extra volt. D, E and Root are summed with the diatonic converter's voltage by IC3a, that's all. If you don't feed anything into them, nothing gets added. No one gets hurt 
| numbertalk wrote: | | What's an example of what kind of signal you might input here? Would you also have the 1V/Oct input at the Root input? |
If you did want to use the root Mix/root input, you could for instance feed one sequencer into the MFOS quantizer/diatonic converter, where is would be "fixed" for you (only voltage levels appropriate for generating notes of the scale would come out - no need to carefully "tune" the sequencer voltages). So the sequencer would merrily clock away and beautiful (not out of tune) music would come out of your VCO. Now suppose you wanted the melody to shift from time to time. You could take the CV output from a well calibrated analog synth keyboard, and plug it into the Mix/root input. Play a "C", and later play a "D". The meoldy will go up one whole step. However, you could do the same thing by instead plugging the keyboard into a second CV input of the VCO.
| numbertalk wrote: | | So you used a SPST toggle here (not a momentary) with the throw connected to +15V through a 100K resistor and the pole connected to the switch lug on the Maj/Min jack? And by the slower LFO for this input you mean a pulse wave LFO, right, since it expects a logic/gate type signal? |
Yes, and yes. |
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numbertalk
Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 992
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:31 am Post subject:
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| Thank you so much - very clear to me now! |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:36 am Post subject:
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| guitarfool wrote: |
That would acheive the same end, but Ray Wilson already has a PCB that's relatively cheap and uses no expensive or exotic parts. And I'm basically lazy |
Thanks!
I'll look into both the RW alternative and also try to build my own AD.. |
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numbertalk
Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 992
Location: Austin, TX
Audio files: 5
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:47 am Post subject:
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| What exactly am I supposed to listen or look for when trimming the gain on the note & octave buffers? Any tips on how to set these? |
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numbertalk
Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 992
Location: Austin, TX
Audio files: 5
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject:
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I have built the Diatonic Converter, interfacing it with the MFOS Quantizer just like guitarfool, but I'm having a srange problem I'm hoping someone can help me with.
I wired up an SPST toggle switch for Maj/Min, the same way as guitarfool did, with +15VDC wired through a 100K resistor for Min mode, unconnected (default) for Maj mode. I'm unable to get it to switch to different modes between Maj & Min - they are exactly the same when I switch between them while an 8-note run plays up and down the scale - whether I use this normalled switch or feed it a 0-5Vp-p pulse wave LFO (and the voltage is definitely getting through to the Maj/Min pins on the CD4053B).
Stranger still, there seems to be some sort of active "field" around the lower 1/2 of the CD4053B there where the Maj/Min mode is supposed to be controlled (this isn't happening with any of the other chips and even not on the top 1/2 of the 4053). If I hold my finger close to the chip at this spot the control voltage output of the circuit gets unstable and distorts. Anyone have any idea what might be going on? I was able to get the board calibrated really well otherwise - works great. Also the Quantizer driving it is working perfectly and is very well calibrated.
This isn't a huge deal because I can retune my VCOs to change between a Maj and Min scale here, but it would be nice to be able to jump between them within a song without having to retune the root (plus I had a jack and switch put on the panel I had made for this, so it'd be nice for those to not just be decorations ).
Any help very much appreciated. |
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numbertalk
Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 992
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject:
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I got this working and thought I'd post my findings, in case anyone else sets out to build this and runs into similar issues.
There were 2 issues. The first was that I was running the Maj/Min input directly into the Maj/Min pad when instead it needed to go through one of the input interface pads (IA-IF).
Also I needed to tie the output from the Maj/Min jack (the toggle switch is tied to the switching lug of this jack) to ground through a 100K resistor - that way when the toggle is switched to Major and there's no cable attached to the Maj/Min jack there won't be a floating input causing those interference issues I was having around the CD4053. |
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