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BobTheDog
Joined: Feb 28, 2005 Posts: 4044 Location: England
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:35 am Post subject:
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ReaktorFreak wrote: |
But isn't most synth capable of receiving multi-track MIDI input on separate channels ? If the synth cannot do that, it's still can be set up easily from the DAW right ?
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Hardware synths with multi mode are ok otherwise you are knackered. Also you start hitting problems as synths can run out of oomph when run like this and you start loosing voices, the blofeld is a good example of this.
With plugins you tend to have to duplicate them 6 times, with 6 times the cpu. |
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ReaktorFreak
Joined: Sep 28, 2007 Posts: 65 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:59 am Post subject:
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BobTheDog wrote: | Hardware synths with multi mode are ok otherwise you are knackered. Also you start hitting problems as synths can run out of oomph when run like this and you start loosing voices, the blofeld is a good example of this.
With plugins you tend to have to duplicate them 6 times, with 6 times the cpu. |
I can see now why guitar synths seems to be the only way.. |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 2114 Location: Morokulien
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:48 am Post subject:
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ReaktorFreak wrote: | I can see now why guitar synths seems to be the only way.. |
Same here. I once thought that guitar-to-MIDI was going to be the bees knees, but I quickly discovered the delights of real guitar (re)synthesis and the level of expression it offers (using a VG-99). Now the idea of guitar-to-MIDI seems somewhat redundant to me...
DJ
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004 Posts: 2503 Location: Denver
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:04 am Post subject:
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Just to clarify, MIDI was developed a fairly LONG time ago, and I'd say it's been around longer than nearly any other digital protocol...including modern ethernet, VGA/video, and obviously anything newer. IE- it's from 1984ish. It was developed for synthesizer use, and was typically played by keyboards...in fact, it was intended for keyboards or sequencers to communicate to synthesizers. In the grand scheme of things, it's ancient technology. So, the fact it is still ubiquitous, and working as well as it does, is amazing to me. It's like comparing harpsichord technology, to the piano.
For a more advanced protocol, you might look into equipment and programs that use the OSC protocol...which is way beyond MIDI, not only in the 7-bit (128) representations of notes (OSC uses 32-bits), but especially in it's control mechanisms. It is expandable as a language, so it can be developed more specifically for other types of controllers, such as guitar, bass, harp, or even Hurdy Gurdy.
That all said, I agree with Dr.J -- resynthesis (like the GR-300, etc), maintains all the expressiveness of the original instrument, because it doesn't have any middle language such as MIDI, it directly generates a new audio sound/timbre based on the original guitar sound. Those techniques used in programs like Pd, MAX/MSP, or Reaktor would probably be a lot more interesting than MIDI control. |
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BobTheDog
Joined: Feb 28, 2005 Posts: 4044 Location: England
Audio files: 32
G2 patch files: 15
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:21 am Post subject:
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DrJustice wrote: | ReaktorFreak wrote: | I can see now why guitar synths seems to be the only way.. |
Same here. I once thought that guitar-to-MIDI was going to be the bees knees, but I quickly discovered the delights of real guitar (re)synthesis and the level of expression it offers (using a VG-99). Now the idea of guitar-to-MIDI seems somewhat redundant to me...
DJ
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Well I don't totally agree with this, I don't think we should kill midi guitar yet!
The guitar can be used as a pretty expressive midi controller its just that you cannot expect to play the guitar in the same way as you normally would.
If you would like to see a nice example have a look at Marc Schonbruns (moderator of guitar stuff on the NI forums and general nice guy) website, goto the media section and play the top video. This was done with a Roland GR33 and Reaktor. http://www.marcschonbrun.com/ |
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BobTheDog
Joined: Feb 28, 2005 Posts: 4044 Location: England
Audio files: 32
G2 patch files: 15
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:39 am Post subject:
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jksuperstar wrote: |
For a more advanced protocol, you might look into equipment and programs that use the OSC protocol...which is way beyond MIDI, not only in the 7-bit (128) representations of notes (OSC uses 32-bits), but especially in it's control mechanisms. It is expandable as a language, so it can be developed more specifically for other types of controllers, such as guitar, bass, harp, or even Hurdy Gurdy.
That all said, I agree with Dr.J -- resynthesis (like the GR-300, etc), maintains all the expressiveness of the original instrument, because it doesn't have any middle language such as MIDI, it directly generates a new audio sound/timbre based on the original guitar sound. Those techniques used in programs like Pd, MAX/MSP, or Reaktor would probably be a lot more interesting than MIDI control. |
Well I must admit an OSC based guitar converter would be great but what would you play with it? The only commercial synth I know supporting OSC is FAWs Circle and that doesn't allow you to play it via OSC but rather as a midi CC replacement.
The re-synthesis idea is what I am after doing with Kyma when my Pacarana arrives. |
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cbm
Joined: Oct 25, 2005 Posts: 381 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:53 am Post subject:
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ReaktorFreak wrote: | That's just what i don't understand from the moment they decide to invent MIDI, it's supposed to be working for all instrument, why don't they think of something more 'universal' than it ? Sure, modeling after a piano key is the easiest way, but torturing guitarist like this is totally unacceptable.. |
Actually MIDI was originally conceived as a way to drive a sound module from a remote keyboard and sequencer, not as a general purpose music language. The fact that it is as useful as it is was a side effect. MIDI has been around a long time and continues to be useful, if a little frustrating.
Quote: | But aren't Note On Messages have velocity value bound in them ? So it is possible to alter velocity value after Note On has been sent without sending Note Off first ? I thought the one that can develop over time is the CC message, that seems to be independent from Note On Messages.. |
Continuous controllers can be used for this sort of thing, but like every MIDI message except poly aftertouch they are global for a MIDI channel, so this is another thing forcing you into multiple MIDI channels.
Quote: | Is legato means 'auto note off then on' when the pitch changes ? Or once a note on has been sent everything is treated as pitchbend message ? |
Legato means that if a MIDI channel is in mono mode, and it receives a NoteOn before the previous note's NoteOff, move to the new pitch without re-attacking the envelopes.
Quote: | But isn't most synth capable of receiving multi-track MIDI input on separate channels ? If the synth cannot do that, it's still can be set up easily from the DAW right ? |
Easily? probably not. Treating a bank of six MIDI channels as one thing is not something DAWs do well. I would love to have someone correct me here and say that DAW xxx does this well. _________________ Chris Muir
http://www.eardrill.com <– My jobby (more than a hobby, less than a job) |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 2114 Location: Morokulien
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:24 am Post subject:
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BobTheDog wrote: | ...I don't think we should kill midi guitar yet!
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Of course not, I just got carried away...
The resynthesis is a different animal, and I'm hooked. As I get better at playing the guitar, I may want to try out some guitar-to-MIDI, but at this time and level of non-proficiency there isn't much of a point in it. Give me 50 years or so to attain the steady hand of Mr. Marc Schonbruns - Although I note that even for him, clean MIDI-guitar requires some advanced pulling of faces...
DJ
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ReaktorFreak
Joined: Sep 28, 2007 Posts: 65 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:51 am Post subject:
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jksuperstar wrote: | It was developed for synthesizer use, and was typically played by keyboards...in fact, it was intended for keyboards or sequencers to communicate to synthesizers. |
Then they shouldn't be making MIDI guitars or any Pitch to MIDI converter, it's kinda disappointing knowing that it's not intended for guitar or other instruments than keyboard / synths at all.
jksuperstar wrote: | That all said, I agree with Dr.J -- resynthesis (like the GR-300, etc), maintains all the expressiveness of the original instrument, because it doesn't have any middle language such as MIDI, it directly generates a new audio sound/timbre based on the original guitar sound. Those techniques used in programs like Pd, MAX/MSP, or Reaktor would probably be a lot more interesting than MIDI control. |
While re-synthesis sounds interesting for its expressiveness possibility, it will not offer compatibility as much as MIDI i think. It's the classic issue..
cbm wrote: | ReaktorFreak wrote: | But aren't Note On Messages have velocity value bound in them ? So it is possible to alter velocity value after Note On has been sent without sending Note Off first ? I thought the one that can develop over time is the CC message, that seems to be independent from Note On Messages.. |
Continuous controllers can be used for this sort of thing, but like every MIDI message except poly aftertouch they are global for a MIDI channel, so this is another thing forcing you into multiple MIDI channels. |
Velocity is also polyphonic, as each note on can have their own values, so why the multiple channels is needed for it ?
cbm wrote: | ReaktorFreak wrote: | Is legato means 'auto note off then on' when the pitch changes ? Or once a note on has been sent everything is treated as pitchbend message ? |
Legato means that if a MIDI channel is in mono mode, and it receives a NoteOn before the previous note's NoteOff, move to the new pitch without re-attacking the envelopes. |
Thanks, the guitar's legato mode is kinda mysterious to me, now i understand it and why only few synths supports it. It's seems similar to the old analog monophonic legato though. Maybe there's a way to simulate this in poly mode ? |
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cbm
Joined: Oct 25, 2005 Posts: 381 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:29 pm Post subject:
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ReaktorFreak wrote: | Then they shouldn't be making MIDI guitars or any Pitch to MIDI converter, it's kinda disappointing knowing that it's not intended for guitar or other instruments than keyboard / synths at all. |
Well, you can certainly use MIDI for guitar, there are just a few hoops to jump through, and it will probably never be perfect.
Quote: | Velocity is also polyphonic, as each note on can have their own values, so why the multiple channels is needed for it ? |
Because a NoteOn triggers a note. If you tried to use repeated NoteOns to update the velocity value, you would get a handful of attack sounds, one for each NoteOn/Velocity update.
Quote: | Thanks, the guitar's legato mode is kinda mysterious to me, now i understand it and why only few synths supports it. It's seems similar to the old analog monophonic legato though. Maybe there's a way to simulate this in poly mode ? |
Not that I know of.
It is analogous to the way some analog synths responded to legato playing. _________________ Chris Muir
http://www.eardrill.com <– My jobby (more than a hobby, less than a job) |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 2114 Location: Morokulien
Audio files: 4
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:34 pm Post subject:
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cbm wrote: | Quote: | Velocity is also polyphonic, as each note on can have their own values, so why the multiple channels is needed for it ? |
Because a NoteOn triggers a note. If you tried to use repeated NoteOns to update the velocity value, you would get a handful of attack sounds, one for each NoteOn/Velocity update. |
Just adding for clarity, that unlike NoteOn messages, the Continuous Controller (CC), Pitch-Bend etc. are not bound to any specific note, i.e. they affect all the sounding notes on one specific MIDI channel. Thus you need separate channels for fully featured separate MIDI processing of each string.
DJ
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GovernorSilver
Joined: Apr 26, 2004 Posts: 1349 Location: Washington DC Metro
G2 patch files: 1
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 2114 Location: Morokulien
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject:
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(Edit: this was an addendum to my previous post, the Governor quickly posted inbetween )
Regarding using multiple channels: if two or more strings are sounding in unison, using multiple channles allow simultaneous voices to play the same note.
DJ
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BobTheDog
Joined: Feb 28, 2005 Posts: 4044 Location: England
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject:
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Have you tried StringPort? |
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ReaktorFreak
Joined: Sep 28, 2007 Posts: 65 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:19 pm Post subject:
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cbm wrote: | ReaktorFreak wrote: | Then they shouldn't be making MIDI guitars or any Pitch to MIDI converter, it's kinda disappointing knowing that it's not intended for guitar or other instruments than keyboard / synths at all. |
Well, you can certainly use MIDI for guitar, there are just a few hoops to jump through, and it will probably never be perfect. |
I just wish company like Roland to be more honest, like saying 'this guitar-MIDI converter probably not working as good as keyboard, so please be patient and take your time to learn how to play it' instead of 'make your guitar sound like a trumpet instantly' or such. I feel i've been cheated badly from it..
cbm wrote: | ReaktorFreak wrote: | Velocity is also polyphonic, as each note on can have their own values, so why the multiple channels is needed for it ? |
Because a NoteOn triggers a note. If you tried to use repeated NoteOns to update the velocity value, you would get a handful of attack sounds, one for each NoteOn/Velocity update. |
Sorry if i'm being persistent, but i need to learn a lot of MIDI stuff i don't know since i'm doing pitch to MIDI converter. I was referring to what you've said here :
cbm wrote: | There are three things that are inextricably linked in a MIDI NoteOn message: pitch, velocity, and onset time (play it now.) When a note is "started" on a violin for example, it doesn't exactly have a "velocity" value. The amplitude of the note depends on bow pressure and speed of bow travel, and will develop over time. |
I thought what you mean is when note on was generated, it doesn't have a velocity value in the beginning, then only after the amplitude has been determined that it was generated. The question is, if it's true, then the 'actual' note that we hear only sounded when velocity value has been determined. But after the note has sounded how can the velocity value be changed (develop over time) for the current note ?
cbm wrote: | ReaktorFreak wrote: | Thanks, the guitar's legato mode is kinda mysterious to me, now i understand it and why only few synths supports it. It's seems similar to the old analog monophonic legato though. Maybe there's a way to simulate this in poly mode ? |
Not that I know of.
It is analogous to the way some analog synths responded to legato playing. |
It seems quite familiar when you say "without re-attacking the envelopes".. |
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BobTheDog
Joined: Feb 28, 2005 Posts: 4044 Location: England
Audio files: 32
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject:
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ReaktorFreak wrote: |
I just wish company like Roland to be more honest, like saying 'this guitar-MIDI converter probably not working as good as keyboard, so please be patient and take your time to learn how to play it' instead of 'make your guitar sound like a trumpet instantly' or such. I feel i've been cheated badly from it..
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Have you got one and are having problems with it then? |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 2114 Location: Morokulien
Audio files: 4
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:38 pm Post subject:
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ReaktorFreak wrote: | ...But after the note has sounded how can the velocity value be changed (develop over time) for the current note ? |
It can't. The NoteOn message carries the message type (NoteOn), channel number, note number and attack velocity value. The corresponding NoteOff message is similar but has a release velocity value. So, the velocity values are instantanous values that are only sent when a note is started and stopped.
If you want to change some aspect of a sounding note there are the usual CC, Pitch-Bend etc. messages that will work for all sounding notes on the one channel. There is one exception, Polyphonic Pressure, which is a continuous control message that acts on one specific note on a channel - it's not always fully supported, but can be used for per note control of one parameter when using a single channel.
For more on this I recommend seeking out some good MIDI tutorials and references on the net.
DJ
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ReaktorFreak
Joined: Sep 28, 2007 Posts: 65 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject:
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BobTheDog wrote: | ReaktorFreak wrote: |
I just wish company like Roland to be more honest, like saying 'this guitar-MIDI converter probably not working as good as keyboard, so please be patient and take your time to learn how to play it' instead of 'make your guitar sound like a trumpet instantly' or such. I feel i've been cheated badly from it..
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Have you got one and are having problems with it then? |
I haven't got one, but the one i'm having problem with is not the converter itself, but the way it was said, which makes everything seems so easy, while in fact, it's not.
DrJustice wrote: | ReaktorFreak wrote: | ...But after the note has sounded how can the velocity value be changed (develop over time) for the current note ? |
It can't. The NoteOn message carries the message type (NoteOn), channel number, note number and attack velocity value. The corresponding NoteOff message is similar but has a release velocity value. So, the velocity values are instantanous values that are only sent when a note is started and stopped.
If you want to change some aspect of a sounding note there are the usual CC, Pitch-Bend etc. messages that will work for all sounding notes on the one channel. There is one exception, Polyphonic Pressure, which is a continuous control message that acts on one specific note on a channel - it's not always fully supported, but can be used for per note control of one parameter when using a single channel.
For more on this I recommend seeking out some good MIDI tutorials and references on the net.
DJ
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Thanks ! |
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GovernorSilver
Joined: Apr 26, 2004 Posts: 1349 Location: Washington DC Metro
G2 patch files: 1
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject:
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BobTheDog wrote: | Have you tried StringPort? |
Admittedly, not yet as the product has not been released yet. More info, including video coverage and a couple of PDFs can be found at http://www.keithmcmillen.com/
But Keith's bandmates are already using them along with his other new invention, the K-Bow, so I consider both to be real products.
Some thing the Stringport does for those who never heard of it before:
- Extracts at least 8 parameters from string input signal. See PDF on Keith's site for more info. The GI-20 extracts only amplitude (velocity) and pitch (MIDI note number + pitch bend unless PB is turned off). The Axon AX-100 can extract pick position as a third parameter, but still... 3 < 8!
- Already one commercial softsynth has been ported to Stringport to use the 8 min. realtime parameters - Synful Orchestra. Demo version is included free of extra charge.
- The "brain" was written in Max/MSP - easy integration with Max/MSP (which is sort of like Reaktor) _________________ Current and recent work on Soundcloud
Some old stuff on VIRB |
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BobTheDog
Joined: Feb 28, 2005 Posts: 4044 Location: England
Audio files: 32
G2 patch files: 15
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject:
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I must admit it looks pretty interesting. One for the shopping list! |
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Oskar
Joined: Jul 29, 2004 Posts: 1751 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject:
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Going beyond the purely technological discussion - as I don't have the knowledge to contribute anyway - I suppose that using a guitar (or guitar-like à la Synth-Axe et al) as a means of producing notes for some form of synthesis - midi-based or self contained - means that you have to modify your playing approach? _________________ Where there are too many policemen, there is no liberty. Where there are too many soldiers, there is no peace. Where there are too many lawyers, there is no justice.
Lin Yutang (1895-1976) |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 2114 Location: Morokulien
Audio files: 4
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject:
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Oskar wrote: | Going beyond the purely technological discussion - as I don't have the knowledge to contribute anyway - I suppose that using a guitar (or guitar-like à la Synth-Axe et al) as a means of producing notes for some form of synthesis - midi-based or self contained - means that you have to modify your playing approach? |
That's one of the big differences between MIDI or 'self contained', as you say, usually resynthesis by FFT or wavelets or something in the modern units:
MIDI requires precise tracking of the pitch, which is problematic in itself, then any further control of the sound, beyond the NoteOn, depends on the guitar-to-MIDI devices capability of extracting variations in pitch and amplitude and so on, and send these parameters to the synth for sound variations. You may have to adapt your playing style to control everything the way it's intended and avoid random notes and such.
The resynthesis method does not perform pitch tracking. It uses the actual sound, analyzing it and resynthesizing. In the resynthesis stage the sound can be cleverly modified in an infinity of ways. The result is that there are no tracking issues, every little nuance comes through, scraping on a string sounds like scraping on a string, not like a thousand misfiring oscillators. In other words, you can play your guitar like you always do and expect a fully guitar-like control and response (because it actually is the guitar sound...). Of course you can make sounds that are so unlike guitar that by their nature they'd require some variation in playing technique, but that's a different matter.
DJ
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GovernorSilver
Joined: Apr 26, 2004 Posts: 1349 Location: Washington DC Metro
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject:
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Oskar wrote: | Going beyond the purely technological discussion - as I don't have the knowledge to contribute anyway - I suppose that using a guitar (or guitar-like à la Synth-Axe et al) as a means of producing notes for some form of synthesis - midi-based or self contained - means that you have to modify your playing approach? |
I had a longer reply that was not saved to the board, but the essence is that it depends on the musical application. The further away from the guitar's physical behavior you want to get, the more you will probably have to change your approach. Example: a wind or bowed instrument's ability to lower its volume and raise it again without "retriggering" and also change pitch, timbre, etc. simultaneously with the re-swelling of volume. Or how about the organ, which allows you to sustain a note and play a melody around that sustained note?
Other than that, you could conceivably strum fast and do pitch bends on a piano patch if you really want to - a lot of people seem to find that tasteless .
If you pull up a trumpet patch and want to sound like Miles Davis, you don't use your Eric Clapton guitar licks. _________________ Current and recent work on Soundcloud
Some old stuff on VIRB |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 2114 Location: Morokulien
Audio files: 4
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:50 pm Post subject:
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GovernorSilver wrote: | Other than that, you could conceivably strum fast and do pitch bends on a piano patch if you really want to - a lot of people seem to find that tasteless .
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Worse! One of the laws of synthesis sez: "Thou shalt not pitch bend thy piano patch. Lest Shackuhaci samples with heavy vibrato will blare forth unto thee forever and ever"
DJ
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ReaktorFreak
Joined: Sep 28, 2007 Posts: 65 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject:
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GovernorSilver wrote: | - Extracts at least 8 parameters from string input signal |
Amazing ! Never thought this was possible before.
DrJustice wrote: | The resynthesis method does not perform pitch tracking. It uses the actual sound, analyzing it and resynthesizing. In the resynthesis stage the sound can be cleverly modified in an infinity of ways. |
Just like using guitar effect, no boundaries anymore between it and guitar synth with the re-synthesis method. |
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