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mosc
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 Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:45 am Post subject:
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| peripatitis wrote: | | Quote: |
akaie wrote :
And because it is unlikely for software companies to make products that go steps back in technollogy |
Well one can argue for the opposite, not to disregard obvious benefits from emulating 'analog' synthesis technology (accessibility to a wider user base , polyphony etc), one could easily see that software companies are indeed mostly concentrating on these older technologies. |
It's really impossible to generalize, but I do it all the time...
Anyway, when synths went commercial in the 70s - Korg, Yamaha, Akai, etc. - I was personally very discouraged because many of the products were not intended as instruments for "electronic music", but for electronic emulators of existing instruments - drums, pianos, Rhodes, guitars, flutes, saxes, etc. Most synthesizers were used in pop bands or in little ensembles that played at weddings.
Maybe this is natural. The manufacturers want to see to the biggest market, and that is often the huge number of musicians who are using more conventional instruments. (Most musicians aren't trying to make original music, but rather music that is like something popular or that they otherwise admire.) This is probably the same reasoning the soft synth makers are using by making so many emulators of the old analog gear.
I don't think this is bad, it's just an observation.
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akaie
Joined: Jun 18, 2006
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Location: Greece
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:43 am Post subject:
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| bigtex wrote: |
I don't know what software you use, but if you want some more interesting waveforms, you could try what I do. I like to use Cool Edit (now Adobe Audition) because it has this great waveshaping effect. They call it distortion. Many other programs might have this effect.
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Any ideas of howto make a sine look like this using waveshaping? |
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peripatitis
Joined: Dec 16, 2005
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Location: Hague
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:55 am Post subject:
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mosc: i am not saying that creating emulations is a bad thing as such, but then it is inevitable for us musicians to get into this game of comparison between the 'clones' and the real thing.
What i find interesting however is that the alternative view of synthesis offered by the programs i mentioned in my earlier post are quite cheap to acquire.
Thus although in the 60's-70's it was expensive to get gear of the latest technology (like modular synths etc) now the more advanced tools are cheap if not free.
And perhaps thats one of the reasons they are not so desirable.
A copy of pd, supercollider,csound is available to any one of us and in many ways they are way more powerful than any commercial product.
The only thing one needs to use them is patience and some studying, which i guess was also the case with people in the 70's entering the synthesizer scene.
And of course these can be used for any music genre (well almost).
As for the manufacturers indeed they are driven by the market, but at the same time we see companies try to mould the market into their plans, create and shape the consumer needs (this is by the way the weak point of capitalism but this is probably not the thread to start a philosophical discussion ). |
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peripatitis
Joined: Dec 16, 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:04 am Post subject:
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well the only easy way i can think of is to draw it.
I am not using a lot of plugins but if i remember correctly you could draw waveshapes in Absynth and propably there are many other applications you could do that.
Any other way would propably require some degree of programming. |
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bigtex
Joined: Mar 30, 2006
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Location: Cupertino, California
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject:
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| akaie wrote: | | Any ideas of howto make a sine look like this using waveshaping? |
Yes, though with just that zoomed in screen shot I have to assume that every other cycle has a little offset like that. Does that wobble/offset repeat every other cycle?
If so, you could use the waveshaper to double the frequency. You'd create one distorted sine on the positive slope and the other distorted sine on the negative slope. That way every other cycle would be slightly different.
Another, likely simpler way to achieve it would be a very simple distortion on the sine, and then add in a low amplitude lower harmonic (fraction of the wave you are working on) or even another frequency. That looks like how that offset is being created, but in reality you'd probably never hear it. Spend some time listening to the weveforms you are looking at and try to get an idea of what kinds of differences you can and can't hear. Some things our ears just don't notice. |
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject:
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| akaie wrote: | | Any ideas of howto make a sine look like this using waveshaping? |
OT but the basic shape shown looks like an FM wave. |
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akaie
Joined: Jun 18, 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:37 am Post subject:
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Actually this is a pure sine from cool edit that I recorded in a crap tape deck
and then back to cool edit. The distortion that has been generated is really weird because its asymetric (left side different than rigth side). I ve seen this in other analog sources too. I dont understand how one could achieve this by waveshaping. I just discovered something great thought. If you mix a sinewave whith other sinewaves that are frequency of the first sine x2, x3, x4 (for example 200hz, 400hz, 600hz,800hz..) and so on with different amplitudes you can achieve every shape you want. Those are the only freqs you need all others will just create phasing. Its quite the reverse from waveshaping. |
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opg
Joined: Mar 29, 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:26 am Post subject:
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| akaie wrote: | Actually this is a pure sine from cool edit that I recorded in a crap tape deck
and then back to cool edit. The distortion that has been generated is really weird because its asymetric (left side different than rigth side). I ve seen this in other analog sources too. I dont understand how one could achieve this by waveshaping. I just discovered something great thought. If you mix a sinewave whith other sinewaves that are frequency of the first sine x2, x3, x4 (for example 200hz, 400hz, 600hz,800hz..) and so on with different amplitudes you can achieve every shape you want. Those are the only freqs you need all others will just create phasing. Its quite the reverse from waveshaping. |
Well this certainly sounds interesting. I'm going to try that out. Of course, I KNOW I've seen and possibly even used a program to draw waveforms. I do it all the time with the 8-bit VSTis like:
Chip32
http://www.kvraudio.com/get/229.html
Rebar
http://www.kvraudio.com/get/1334.html
It was some app for the Mac where you created one-cycle waveforms......geez...I'd recognize it if I saw it..... 
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paul e.
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:27 am Post subject:
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ah ok...i thought you might have been talking about VST-i's that emulated analog synths
but i do dig those synths you referenced...especially Chip32
that is a real fun one
emulating old digital gear seems to work very well
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peripatitis
Joined: Dec 16, 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:28 am Post subject:
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akaie:
This is actual the gist of fourier analysis and synthesis.In theory you can reproduce every natural sound by adding sinewaves
Try to mix only the odd multiples of the fundamental (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th etc) with decreasing amplitudes in which case you'll be making a square wave.
Even with only the first and third harmonic you'll notice the 'square' pattern.
With this technique indeed you can create a lot of periodic synthetic spectra.
Real life sounds however also include noise elements in which case you propably need at least 128 sinewaves to synthesize something believable.
Non integer multiples of the fundamental (ex 1.5 etc) are not changing the pitch of the sound but can create interesting effects like beating in the lower register (which i guess is what you mean by phasing).
These harmonics are very important in the 'color' of the sound (try adding some of these in the higher registry, ex above 1khz).
cheers |
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bigtex
Joined: Mar 30, 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:21 am Post subject:
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| akaie wrote: | Actually this is a pure sine from cool edit that I recorded in a crap tape deck
and then back to cool edit. The distortion that has been generated is really weird because its asymetric (left side different than rigth side). I ve seen this in other analog sources too. I dont understand how one could achieve this by waveshaping. I just discovered something great thought. If you mix a sinewave whith other sinewaves that are frequency of the first sine x2, x3, x4 (for example 200hz, 400hz, 600hz,800hz..) and so on with different amplitudes you can achieve every shape you want. Those are the only freqs you need all others will just create phasing. Its quite the reverse from waveshaping. |
Yes. You are describing additive synthesis. Additive synthesis is combining sine waves which are harmonics of each other.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun00/articles/synthsec.htm
You may have heard of different types of distortion or signal paths having more or less "odd" or "even" harmonics. This is the same as adding in the 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc or the odd harmonics. Odd harmonics will create a square wave. See here:
http://www.mindspring.com/~j.blackstone/dist101.htm
Also, note that you can perform some simple additive synthesis right within the "Generate Tones" dialog in Audition.
I've added in not just harmonics, but some sub-harmonics. In this case, the 0.5 sub-octave is low, and isn't doing much, but I just wanted to show that you're not limited to whole numbers. In fact, you could use numbers to represent waves that have no harmonic ralationship at all, just to see what happens. Try it. You can do quite a bit just with the options here.
This is a fairly simple wave that would become a downward ramp wave with more harmonics added in. Just to show you how you can make an asymmetrical wave, really.
Then, just for kicks, try taking the output of this and use a little bit of distortion and see what you get. Experimentation will answer many of your questions, reading will likely answer the rest. There's a lot of good information out there on these subjects (i.e. methods of synthesis, wave-shapes derived from harmonic series, fourier analysis, etc).
Last edited by bigtex on Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ian-s
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:36 am Post subject:
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| Crap tape decks also have frequency modulation effects like wow, flutter and maybe interraction with the bias ocsillator. |
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mosc
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject:
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| g2ian wrote: | | Crap tape decks also have frequency modulation effects like wow, flutter and maybe interraction with the bias ocsillator. |
Good ones do too... 
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ian-s
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject:
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| When I was a kid, my cassette recorder did interesting things when recording on low batteries. The AGC seemed to divert power from the motor during loud peaks, causing interesting pitch envelopes on percussive sounds. I guess small amounts of this effect could cause subtle phase modulation. |
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varice
Joined: Dec 29, 2004
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Location: Northeastern shore of Toledo Bend
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | | Once, when trying to compare the sound of the Moog filter to the Nord Modular filter, I was having a difficult time. I was playing a Moog sawtooth through the Moog filter and a NM sawtooth throught the NM filter. They sounded much more different than I thought they should. It turns out that the Moog sawtooth is is quite different from an ideal sawtooth. There are many artifacts. The NM is more "ideal". Turns out, the oscilators sounds more different than the filters. (I wouldn't suggest which sounds better). Anyhow, to do the comparison I had to use the same oscilator. |
Please post wavefile samples of your Moog Modular VCO!
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varice
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject:
Analog Waveform Samples |
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Here are some waveform samples from my MG-1.
| Description: |
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MG-1 Tone Source One Saw.wav |
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122.35 KB |
| Downloaded: |
1475 Time(s) |
| Description: |
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MG-1 Tone Source One Pulse.wav |
| Filesize: |
123.21 KB |
| Downloaded: |
1507 Time(s) |
| Description: |
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Download |
| Filename: |
MG-1 Tone Source Two Pulse.wav |
| Filesize: |
117.19 KB |
| Downloaded: |
1403 Time(s) |
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varice
Joined: Dec 29, 2004
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Location: Northeastern shore of Toledo Bend
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject:
Analog Waveform Samples |
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Here are some waveform samples from my Prophet-5 Rev. 3.3 synth.
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Download |
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Prophet-5 Rev3 Oscillator A Saw.wav |
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127.52 KB |
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1407 Time(s) |
| Description: |
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Prophet-5 Rev3 Oscillator A Square.wav |
| Filesize: |
95.65 KB |
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1431 Time(s) |
| Description: |
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| Filename: |
Prophet-5 Rev3 Oscillator A Saw+Square.wav |
| Filesize: |
96.51 KB |
| Downloaded: |
1458 Time(s) |
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varice |
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varice
Joined: Dec 29, 2004
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Location: Northeastern shore of Toledo Bend
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject:
Analog Waveform Samples |
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Here are some more waveform samples from my Prophet-5 Rev. 3.3 synth.
| Description: |
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Download |
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Prophet-5 Rev3 Oscillator B Triangle.wav |
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126.66 KB |
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1475 Time(s) |
| Description: |
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Prophet-5 Rev3 Oscillator B Saw+Triangle.wav |
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106.85 KB |
| Downloaded: |
1432 Time(s) |
| Description: |
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Download |
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Prophet-5 Rev3 Oscillator B Triangle+Square.wav |
| Filesize: |
112.02 KB |
| Downloaded: |
1421 Time(s) |
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varice |
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varice
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akaie
Joined: Jun 18, 2006
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:14 am Post subject:
Re: Analog Waveform Samples |
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| varice wrote: | | Here are some waveform samples from my MG-1. |
thanks  |
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