A very exciting thread about laptop music

elektro80 · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:31 am Post subject:

Actually, I read one review .. an old one.. from when the piano was a modern scary contraption. I think the text went something like this " And he just sits there in front of the piano and does nothing" The reviewr then continued for like forever bashing this new and completely useless instrument that contributed absolutely nothing to the music.

I have read a recent review of pretty clever rock band doing a concert in Oslo and most of the review was about how the musicians alienated the audience because they were standing there and simply concentrated on the playing.. no smoke bombs.. no undressing of ladies.. no nothing. An awful concert. Shocked

paul e. · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:45 am Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:51 am Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:55 am Post subject:

I wonder, is it possible to split this thread and send the "bias"-part of it somewhere else. I was just about to post something about Absynth.. but by now that seems slightly offtopic.. Shocked

elektro80 · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:04 am Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 9:19 am Post subject:

dmosc · Joined: Jun 23, 2003 Posts: 298

forgive a partial skim here but I wanted to give some outsider info from a person who doesn't use this stuff to compose or perform.

I think the diferences between musical intent and computer generated filler is a real struggling point of the entire genre of electronic music and something it must overcome. No matter if it's a DJ mixing pre-recorded stuff or a patch playing itself, I find myself often pushed away by a lack of purpose and direction. The thrill of "listen to this cool sound I can make" only holds me for a few seconds before I kinda loose interest.

These tools like LIVE and the nord etc are wonderful and can truely aid and assist the creative process and that's wonderful and all but they do make it easier to... skip... certain creative processes in the course of composition, be it live or otherwise, that can give the genre a bad name. The tools have advanced to the point where they fill in quite a bit of the music itself. Now, if you use that as an enabler to do other things or evolve it into something with a purpose then I am your biggest fan but the danger for bland composition is certainly stronger here than most places.

paul e. · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 10:34 am Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 11:23 am Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:28 pm Post subject:

As for things on this topic ranging far and wide:

Well over a year ago, maybe two, I had similar concerns to Kassen about topics getting OT. It was generally agreed at that time that Schmooze would be pretty much allowed to go where it might without too much concern for OT.

In general, most of the contributors here do a pretty good job of keeping things on topic - sometimes just a comment can do it.

This topic didn't turn into a flame war because of responsible people who were concerned enough not to let it happen. Smart people who come to this music from different backgrounds are bound to disagree. Thanks to everyone for keeping this civil.

-----------------------------------------------

Now for a comment about the topic.

Greg has a valid point about laptop music heard at laptop events. To him, a lot sounds the same and it becomes boring. I've used to feel that way myself, but when I talk to these musicians, I have found they are just as serious and intelligent as people I know making classical music and other forms that I intuitively appreciate. It then occurs to me that the problem is not that the music sucks, but rather that I don't get it.

I have heard people say that opera sucks. Some people think it's boring, self-indulgent, elitist, and silly. In fact, I used to dislike opera until I met some opera singers when I was in music school. Then, guess what, I started to listen with different ears. Now I appreciate it.

So, I've come to see that sometimes it's best not to say anything if you can't say something nice. If you have something critical to say, take time to think of an inoffensive way to say it. If you work at it, you may just find you talk yourself out of your position. When I find myself being judgemental, it is usually caused by my own insecurity and feelings of inadequacy.

Kassen · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:40 pm Post subject:

Cascone brings some very interesting points on laptop performance, comparing it to other forms of musical performance, sadly declaring opera to be "outside the scope of the essay" (you can´t have it all Mosc.).

LaptopMusic2.pdf

mosc · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject:

Interesting artcile by Kim Cascone. I met him when I was visiting Elektro80 in Trondheim back on 03.

Kassen · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 1:33 pm Post subject:

Trivia; in the past Kim worked for David Lynch, amongst other things on the sound for Twinpeaks. Twinpeaks sounds realy analog....
I think that´s funny.

Anyway, the more I think about it, the sillier talking about "laptop music" becomes. I don´t understand why laptopmusic would be so different from computer music in general. The only real difference between laptops and desktops or mainframes is that you can easily lift and move laptops but that´s clearly not going on on stage; one of the primary complaints is that there´s not enough movement....
I think that´s funny too.

Kassen · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject:

copy of my reaction to Mosc´s post that went weird;
-------------------mosc wrote:

Well over a year ago, maybe two, I had similar concerns to Kassen about topics getting OT. It was generally agreed at that time that Schmooze would be pretty much allowed to go where it might without too much concern for OT.

In general I agree; I know of one dutch board where any real discussion id being made impossible by a team of moderators who have a mortal fear of topic-switching which blocks any real, naturally flowing conversation.

However; here there is a little problem that apartently we can´t discuss interactive software without some people feeling the need to jump in, point out that a lot of software is often used in a non-interactive way (which is of cource true quite true and very sad) and so hyjacking the topic.

Would it perhaps be a idea to designate a area where we could discuss the interactive, realtime use of various types of software, techniques, aesthetics, good international trains that come with power outlets, etc.?
This is a important part of electronic music, after all; many of the great minds of computer music moved into this area as soon as they found their bearings.

We could then join in and complain about non-interactive performance in schmooze. I would like to join in; I´m often disapointed by non-engaging performances. I don´t like it when people playback over cd players, I think it´s sad if people live their electribes in the flightcase so the lid obstructs your view of their hands and of cource I think it´s sad if people are tricked into spending 500 or so bucks on Live when a free download of Winamp would have covered their needs. I personally would like to throw over-rehearsed blues- coverbands on this stack too.

That way we could split the context and the tool. We could then debate tapecontert-equivalents in Schmooze; we could even discuss wether Jan´s radio as he put it on the floor at Rob´s place counted as a tape-concert equivalent; there certainly wasn´t much interaction! (and it was great fun as well).

Frankly; why not just rename the Max/Msp board? There´s not a lot going on there currently and Max is certainly a part of interactive software. Live (uppercase) is probably happier thrown in with Max then it´s in a corner with Cubase and Logic.

Perhaps we are seeing the result of our board being categorised based on hardware instead of based on uses?
_________________

mosc · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 2:22 pm Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject:

Ha ha ha ha! great to see the return of sillyness to this thread.

Mosc, I think this is a tremendously funny and daring move; posting some "laptop music" as a demo of the G2, I should realy answer by transforming Live into a modular synthesiser but I suppose that actually doing it would add little to the concept.

I also think this prooves the term "laptop music" is quite silly since clearly no laptop is needed to produce it!

Not only is it conceptually witty here, musically it´s quite engaging in how it jumps from patern to phrase in a organic way. I prefer this over 90% of the tracks on the latest "clicks and cuts" compilation (which, to be honest, I bought so I´d have AGF´s "pianos" on vinyl). It´s good.

But; does it sound good? I fear I feel this style is the worst possible thing to try on the G2 because the amount of impulse-like signals will interact very badly with some of the aliassing modules and especially the DAC´s.

I can´t stress enough how I think the piece is wonderfull, but the G2´s influence here is realy not to my liking at all.

After posting my challenge I realised that there would be a big problem if anybody would accept it; we´d have to have some objective measuring of what sounds "good" and world history and buletinboards have prooved beyond a shadow of a doubt that objective qualifiers for taste are simply unavailable.

Still; I had gone out and gotten myself a nice beer from the evening store around the corner, sat down for this to find out what you did and almost spiled my beer over my keyboard (that´s a desktop keyboard, for those who care). I think this is very funny indeed.

The sad thing is of cource that many "classical-style" laptop performers insist that the build in outputs of powerbooks sound good while as Rob correctly pointed out; those suffer from many of the difficulties the G2 sufferes from.

Irony makes the world go round.

ian-s · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:42 pm Post subject:

Sounds 'good' to me Smile

cebec · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject:

me, too... and it looks good on my spectral analyzer Laughing

jksuperstar · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 6:34 pm Post subject:

looks good on Ian's oscope, too Rolling Eyes

Kassen · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 6:55 pm Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:01 pm Post subject:

jksuperstar · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:37 pm Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the kind words folks. Actually, the people that do laptop music around here accept anything as a laptop that you can easilly carry, set up on a small table in less than 5 minutes and play immediately. The G2 is OK with them. Unlike some people, they are more interested in the music than in the the instrument.