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L´Andratté
Joined: Sep 23, 2012
Posts: 151
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:51 pm Post subject:
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Phobos,
| Quote: | | ...using a 74HCT4040 wouldn't be a bad idea either. |
Isn´t that TTL or something?
Out of obstinacy and lazyness standard CMOS is a must for me... 
| Quote: | | ...is that with only 7 notes there might be a way to use a lower frequency... |
I want them all! I´ll use the switch method described in my last post.
Sw1: I/off
Sw2: bII/off/II
Sw3: bIII/off/III
Sw4: IV/off
Sw5: bV/off/V
Sw6: #V/off
Sw7: VI/off
Sw8: bVII/off/VII
If a switch carries two notes, these notes are rarely used in a scale together
(like minor/major third or minor major seventh).
Not counting jazz passing/blue notes or gamelan or something and not set
in stone either...
| Quote: | | the CMG it is not very suitable to create a certain melody that you come up with like you might do with a sequencer. |
I play acoustic guitar/e-bass for almost thirty years and I know many ways to come up with melodies.
But like it is hard for a realist painter to invent e.g. the scattering of stones on a beach without lapsing into patterns, and so they need to lose control using random techniques to become really realist , I´d like to build a musical toy to do that for me. You could call it an audio caleidoscope-
| Quote: | | ...to switch the notes you could get all the major modes. |
To come full circle, I thought of this: instead of putting two CMG in series, they
could be put in parallel, one lower and one higher tuned. This would give
suitable variation in tonality (musically valuable change in fundamental and scale) to not become boring in a long time. Referring to your posted vid, as changing the scale over a constant rootnote creates modes, changing rootnotes below a constant scale creates modes too...now change both-counterpoint territory
This needs a lot of switches (16 or even 24, no compromises using 4067) but I have actually a drawer full of that stuff, or one could come up with clever ways of using 4066, etc. (that would be more your territory, clever, etc.)
So my vision is two custom CMGs, coupled with a random pattern generator I already developed of 2x2 crosscoupled, inverted, XORed runglerstyle 4024 shift registers driven via 4093 or another 4046 (squarewave fb possibility!). Into 2 vc filters, one or two vc delays ("Zeitgeist" I had good experiences with), Belton brick reverb (maybe a wavefolder too) in unreasonable order including very silly feedback paths, modulated via voltages derived from D/A converted (optionally slewed? Just thinking...) 4024 bits (all in a not too big box). E.g. CMG squarewaves->filter->reverb->delay->filter->out with delayed fb into first filter can sound very nice, like a strange choir. Maybe patchable, but maybe not because "Audio Caleidoscope" might require max. variation with min. controls.
So I exposed the full extent of my madness/hybris, I think a little experimenting is warranted, this can take weeks for me atm, let´s see 
EDIT: sorry this might be highjacking your thread a little with my own ideas
but I hope you don´t feel that way! |
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PHOBoS
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
Posts: 5828
Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 709
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:14 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Isn´t that TTL or something? Out of obstinacy and lazyness standard CMOS is a must for me... |
It's high speed CMOS with a 5V supply voltage and the difference between 74HC and 74HCT is that the latter one has TTL compatible inputs and
is a bit slower. Honestly I had to look that up again, I knew the T was TTL related but not in which way. I just use whatever I have and generally
don't use pure TTL either. As for obstinacy, the 74HC(T) is sometimes even easier to get than the regular CMOS version. Makes sense with 5V
and higher frequencies being used more together with microcontrollers.
| Quote: | | I want them all! I´ll use the switch method described in my last post... |
I guess I was mixing up some ideas. The idea behind the 7 notes is that with only 7 notes you can get all the major modes for all root notes by
just adjusting the CLK frequency. So you still get all 12 notes but not at the same time, like with the switches. Now to change the CLK you'd
need something similar to a CMG. I am not sure what frequencies you'd need as everything gets divided further. But as I mentioned this is rather
nonsensical as you'd need a much more complex circuit for a result that is limited. The only thing that it would accomplish is an easy way to switch
between scales without having to mute/switch notes. If instead you use switches you can still go outside the major modes and don't need a higher
frequency to begin with.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | the CMG it is not very suitable to create a certain melody that you come up with like you might do with a sequencer. |
I play acoustic guitar/e-bass for almost thirty years and I know many ways to come up with melodies.
But like it is hard for a realist painter to invent e.g. the scattering of stones on a beach without lapsing into patterns, and so they need to lose control using random techniques to become really realist |
To clarify, the reason it is not very suitable or more difficult to predict is because of the 4 bit input. If it had a control input per note (like the Lun-A-Key)
it's easy to patch something up and know what it will do. But with 4 bits and on top of that the way I scrambled the notes it is much harder to predict.
You'd basically need 4 (gate) sequencers running in parallel one for each control input. This isn't a bad thing of course, more a feature.
| Quote: | | I´d like to build a musical toy to do that for me. You could call it an audio caleidoscope- |
YES. That's basically the whole reason I got into this synth mess (synthmas ?) to make something that creates music for me, ideally controlled by the
environment with a bunch of sensors. But, as I found out rather quickly, to be able to do that I first need to understand how to make music myself.
| Quote: | | Referring to your posted vid, as changing the scale over a constant rootnote creates modes, changing rootnotes below a constant scale creates modes too...now change both-counterpoint territory |
That's one of the things that dawned on me after watching that video the first time. I don't think I actually tried it untill a couple of days ago after I had
rewatched the video. Can't say I was very successful though and ended up adding notes by ear not looking at any scales. But yeah if you actually know what you
are doing that should be interesting. It's something I will probably experiment more with using an arduino as a midi 'sequencer'.
| Quote: | | This needs a lot of switches (16 or even 24, no compromises using 4067) but I have actually a drawer full of that stuff, or one could come up with clever ways of using 4066, etc. (that would be more your territory, clever, etc.) |
Using electronic switches/muxes was what I had in mind, hence why I mentioned: | Quote: | | If you add some sort of priority encoding it can be done so that if for example you lower the 6th it will also lower the 3rd and 7th to get an Aeolian scale. |
as that would negate having to toggle several switches yourself to get a certain scale. Instead you'd have a couple of inputs with which you can select them and
then the actual switching is done for you. So in a similar was as you select different notes (and octaves) on the CMG you could select different scales.
Now the problem comes with what to select and when (which ties into it not being easy to predict because of the way it is controlled). As you probably are well
aware of, selecting notes at random and on top of that different scales does not equate to something that is pleasant to listen to or even sound musical.
One of the things I am trying to figure out is where the line is between pure random and following strict rules so that it still sounds melodic without
being repetitive. (scattering of stones on a beach without lapsing into patterns ) It's only the past year or so that I learned about how the scales
are 'relative'. I mean the first time I found out that there are different scales that have the same set of notes it kinda boggled my mind because they
do sound different. Of course that has to do with context, in this case being the root note. If it's not clear what the root is it'll quickly become too random.
(big thanks to Jake Lizzio from Signals Music Studio who makes a lot of great videos)
| Quote: | | So my vision is two custom CMGs, coupled with a random pattern generator I already developed of 2x2 crosscoupled, inverted, XORed runglerstyle 4024 shift registers driven via 4093 or another 4046 (squarewave fb possibility!). Into 2 vc filters, one or two vc delays ("Zeitgeist" I had good experiences with), Belton brick reverb (maybe a wavefolder too) in unreasonable order including very silly feedback paths, modulated via voltages derived from D/A converted (optionally slewed? Just thinking...) 4024 bits (all in a not too big box). E.g. CMG squarewaves->filter->reverb->delay->filter->out with delayed fb into first filter can sound very nice, like a strange choir. Maybe patchable, but maybe not because "Audio Caleidoscope" might require max. variation with min. controls. |
one knob to rule them all, right ? 
Steveg also has some ideas about creating something that generates melodies, there is some info about it in the CMUSE thread.
| Quote: | | EDIT: sorry this might be highjacking your thread a little with my own ideas but I hope you don´t feel that way! |
not at all, quite the contrary. IMHO that's what it's all about, sharing ideas and evolving them. 
_________________
"My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/
SoundCloud BandCamp MixCloud Stickney Synthyards Captain Collider Twitch YouTube |
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PHOBoS
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
Posts: 5828
Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 709
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:46 pm Post subject:
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| L´Andratté wrote: | I want them all! I´ll use the switch method described in my last post.
Sw1: I/off
Sw2: bII/off/II
Sw3: bIII/off/III
Sw4: IV/off
Sw5: bV/off/V
Sw6: #V/off
Sw7: VI/off
Sw8: bVII/off/VII
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Looking into what the options are I noticed that with this switching method you can't get a Lydian mode, at least not in the same key as the other modes.
Changing Sw4 to IV/off/#IV or Sw6 to V/off/#V should make that work. For just the major modes you could combine Sw6 and Sw7 but you probably have
some other scales in mind aswell.
_________________
"My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/
SoundCloud BandCamp MixCloud Stickney Synthyards Captain Collider Twitch YouTube |
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L´Andratté
Joined: Sep 23, 2012
Posts: 151
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Audio files: 5
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L´Andratté
Joined: Sep 23, 2012
Posts: 151
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Audio files: 5
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:02 am Post subject:
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On a little sidenote:
wouldn´t a string of eight comparators and a cd4532 allow voltage control of note
(not really control, but let´s say analog modulation) on the CMG (of course only when using an eight channel multiplexer, but conceptwise)?
This is fascinating, cybernetic counterpoint, the stuff of dreams (well, mine at least  )
_________________
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PHOBoS
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
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Audio files: 709
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