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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tim wrote:
I'm sorry, but Cage is a joke. I don't understand how anybody could ever take him seriously.

*Where's my atomic bunker?*


I reckon you are safe for now. You haven´t messed with Texas Jesus yet.
Yes, Cage is displaying a large number of serious inconsistencies in his teachings. A joke? Perhaps, but I guess the dude had serious fun himself. His mess with zen is more like a kind of attemt to express something he didn´t quite get himself. I don´t see this as problematic at all. I don´t however see much point in making the guy into a god. It is pretty crowded already. When I think of it, the way I see it, Merce Cunningham did more for music than Cage ever did. Shocked Laughing

We might however be on the wrong track here. The inital posts were pretty interesting, and by itself the idea of anti-music is extremely interesting. Cage was a nice diversion. Kinda like stomping a smurf. But.. please carry on with the anti-music stuff. This is hot.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tim wrote:
I'm sorry, but Cage is a joke. I don't understand how anybody could ever take him seriously.

*Where's my atomic bunker?*


Just for the record, when you have the atomic bunker stuff sorted out, would you then please post the coordinates here?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Right.. Cage..

I have stated I can actually enjoy some his texts. Clearly this guy was on a mission. I don´t think he was a tragic musical clown. I don´t agree with what he is actually saying in his text, but on the other hand, he is also struggling to express something that most of us can understand and agree with. Cage has however very little to do with the aestethics of noise. We will have to look elsewhere.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

undrachievr wrote:

although i do agree with what you are saying about escapism, viewing action in terms of escape, depends largely on perspective, too.
seeing escapism might have more to do with your own relation to escapism than that of what you are observing...


Yes, of cource, much like your own words and actions reflect your own personality too.

I didn't mean it in a negative way though. "escapism" as a word is sometimes used to indicate a parctice akin to some mental disease while I tried using it more in a sense of "entertainment". I'm guilty, for sure; my escapism runs so far that I have dvd's and quite a few video games but my tv isn't contected to the cable, I *like* being in controll of what I see when I take a evening off. I didn't even intend to look down on the clubber, I'm guilty there too. Today I'm not going to a club so I didn't shave nor do did I look at what shirt I was putting on while of cource last saturday night i was lying through my teeth, putting up a front that I always shave and wear clean, carefully picked clothing.

What I was trying to do was compare forms of entertainment in relation to dayly life.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Skip, I'm having a bit of trouble following your post above due to some issues with the "quote" formatting. Could you please have a look at that? Right now it's not realy clear to me who is saying what and I suspect the board-tags are acting up a bit too.

Many disagreements turn out to be based on misunderstandings so I think it might pay off to keep the discussion as clear as possible. Of cource if that would turn out not to help then there is still nothing wrong with a bit of disagreement.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tim wrote:
Gee -this discussion has grown in my absence. Don't know if I'll manage to plug into everything said in the meantime.

But I do feel tempted to have a stab at those Cage quotes.

skiptracer wrote:
"throws grenade"

Here are a few John Cage quotes:

"The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason."


Oh well, then let's just go to an airport and sit right next to the jet engine of a Boeing747 (140dB). No reason, sure. Rolling Eyes


actually, tim, that is why i prefer listening to noise at moderate levels on my headphones or at home, as opposed to going to clubs or parties. mind you, i do attend parties and go to clubs (the latter less so), but the volume of the music, although certainly an interesting experience, doesn't do much for me.

going to the average club, imo, is much closer to your Boeing example, than noise music necessarily is.

that being said, i suppose i am just nitpicking and get your point. Wink

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well -I won't go into all the stuff via the "quote"-route, as it gets more and more difficult to understand to other readers.

Anyway, I don't see the need to debunk with argumentation what I can simply just experience. (pun indended)

Those who believe that I am anti-noise will be surprised at the copious arsenal of self-made interactive or automatic noise-patches (we call them noodles) I have made on my NordModular G2. I'm very open to this kind of stuff.

On the other hand, I'm a performing professional instrumentalist too (piano), and compared to the discipline and dogged hard work required in that field, the noise stuff is just laughably easy to do.

*gets on soapbox*

Maybe I have different needs. When I go to listen to a concert, I want to hear transcendence! I want to witness the artist overcoming the obstacles of his own craft in order to reach out and touch me. I want to witness this struggle -and the victory. I want to see this expression of the human existential act: the overthrowing -if only for a moment- of the shackles of our limited existence, our mortal condition, and the reaching out for the divine.

That's what music is to me. I dont want to see laptoppers with horn-rimmed glasses and shaved heads posing as intellectuals and pulling a deadly serious faces while massaging a touchpad controlling a granular oscillator filled with a sample of a flushing toilet. Sure, "Wow, that sounds very interesting, very unique, gee, how did you think of all this stuff, you guys are so far out..."

...but where's transcendence there? Where's the artistic struggle? Heck, I can show somebody in 10 minutes how to do this. (By comparison: Playing an instrument well takes 10 years... at least)

These kind of electronic 'artists' often use the term "happy accidents" in order to euphemistically describe what is actually just a hit-or-miss procedure. You set up a patch (easy to do if you've read the manual), you start tweaking knobs (not that difficult either), and you make a serious face whenever "interesting" results start to occur (practicing in front of a mirror helps). I did this kind of stuff myself often too (well, not the mirror bit Smile ). People coming by my studio often stood and listened with great interest (sic) and amazement...

...and it's so damn freakin' easy to do. I had to laugh at myself and often wondered why I keep on the discipline of piano playing anyway.

But I don't want to listen to accidents provided by a feedback loop. I want to hear something better. I want to see an artist struggle -and succeed. I don't want people not even properly participating anymore, doing phonecalls on stage etc. (as described in this thread). To me, that kind of stuff is a total degeneration of what musical performance and the musical experience can be. It's a sign of our sick culture. Count me out of that.

I don't want to hear "interesting sounds" anyway! "Interesting" is just... well, interesting. But is it moving? The most profoundly moving sonic experiences I have had in my life were linked to the most uninteresting music or sound. That, to me, was a lesson in itself.

Think about it: Is love "interesting"?

*gets off soapbox and back into the bunker*
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In this particular thread it seems that noise/noise music describes a genre of "music". As such this probably means that the pieces do have a form.. a kind of defined structure or quality that defines the genre. Can we discuss this? From what I have heard of "noise music" here in Norway, we aren´t really talking about clusters and whatnot.. stuff that can be hard to do well. We aren´t talking about fairly complex compositions?

Personally I don´t really see "noisy" components as unmusical. It is all about writing a piece that makes it work. It is also quite amazing what people at times will call noise. To some, complex moving clusters will be noise.

Shocked

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think you are putting the comparision rather skewed, Tim. You say you can show people how to make noise in ten minutes and that learning to play a instrument well takes ten years. I don't doubt either is true (though it does raise some interesting questions with regard to the life-cycle of contemorary electronic instruments) but there is no conflict at all. I can show you how to play the piano in under a minute. There are 80 or so buttons and you can push them in different orders, you can affect the sound by pushing or not pushing two or three pedals; considerably simpeler then -say- a non-input mixingdesk setup.

And yeah, love is interesting as a sociological phenomenon. It also holds some apeal on a biochemical level in amphetamines are your thing.
:¬p

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I understand what Tim is saying, but then noise is not always noise. I have tried to make other musicians learn complex cluster parts and operating the horsebox and the stepfilter patches, and this is stuff that will make most seasoned keyboardists dizzy and uncomfortable.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I understand what Tim is saying too but I disagree. To me laptops are every bit as valid as pianos and feedback loops benefit from decades of practice as much as traditional instruments

Playing the piano is laughably easy too, not only can trained monkeys do it; cats do so by accident. Playing the piano well and expressively is hard though. I think we are comparing the theoretical potential of the piano with how noise is done in practice which is completely asymetrical. To be fair we'd need to include the gross majority of people who play the piano; the endless rows of people who learned the theme to "fur elisa" by rote and will play that for a minute as soon as they see a piano. If we include those people then the situation becomes very different. Suddenly it becomes quite clear that noise and "music" are very much the same with regard to the distrubution of tallent. The major difference is that untallent noise musicians get paid to play in venues while untalented/unexperienced pianists create situations in hotel lobies, libraries and other places featuring unatended pianos where you end up praying for a chance to pay them to stop.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
To me laptops are every bit as valid as pianos and feedback loops benefit from decades of practice as much as traditional instruments

.... Suddenly it becomes quite clear that noise and "music" are very much the same with regard to the distrubution of tallent. The major difference is that untallent noise musicians get paid to play in venues while untalented/unexperienced pianists create situations in hotel lobies, libraries and other places featuring unatended pianos where you end up praying for a chance to pay them to stop.


Very true. I guess we can all agree on this one. Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm fairly certain Tim is anoyed with those people to a level you and me can't even imagine, much like I'd like to asure Tim I too frown at a lot of laptop performances.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have been to a few truly great laptop concerts, but for some reason most laptop noise kids all tend to be doing me-too stuff. I have heard very little noisy laptop stuff which is original and something I would consider good music. I tend to think that wasn´t the point either. I could say the same about most of the rock concerts I have been to too.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sure, but is that realy so much more "me too" then hamering out a bit of "fur elize"?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Sure, but is that realy so much more "me too" then hammering out a bit of "fur elize"?


..The same thing.. throw in Starway to Heaven too..

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
The major difference is that untallent noise musicians get paid to play in venues while untalented/unexperienced pianists create situations in hotel lobies, libraries and other places featuring unatended pianos where you end up praying for a chance to pay them to stop.


Hmmm. I like being a noise musician and I play unattended pianos in hotel lobbies too.

Changing subjects, I don't see what is gained by pointing out that one doesn't like this or that music. What can come from this? Do you (not speaking of someone in particular here) want to convince someone that some music or anti-music/noise that they enjoy is in actuality bad. "Oh you like that, you think that is music. Well let me tell you it sucks." This only has negative effects in the world. What is the desired effect? "I used to love D&B music but Mosc convinced me it's stupid. Now I hate it." (This is an example, of course. I used to dislike D&B until I opened my ears in a new way. Now, I'm better off for enjoying it.

Unless someone tells me anything good can come from this kind of negative converstation. I request we stop it. On the other hand, only good can come from postive conversations about music. "I like this music. It is not noise, I find it beautiful (or intellegent, interesting, inspiring, transendental, etc)." What bad can come from this? Let's continue this kind of discussion.

Oh, by the way, I personally LOVE listening to jet engines when I go the an airport.

In this Cage made great sense.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Regarding the whole Buddhism/Cage connection:

I think that Buddhism is misunderstood and idealized by us in the West, in general. Consider the fratboy/pothead use of the term "buddha" as a synonym for "marijuana", when Buddhist monks aren't allowed to touch women or even drink alcohol! Similar sepia-toned idealizations occur throughout our popular culture.

I can't say whether Cage was or was not a devotee of the Buddhist philosophy, but he was an embodiment of this false/idealized view of Buddhist philosophy in our culture -- in much the same way that, for instance, The White Stripes are the embodiment of the sepia-toned idealization of "Rock And Roll Like It Used To Be" by well-heeled white people.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ryansupak wrote:
I think that Buddhism is misunderstood and idealized by us in the West, in general.


wave

Right.

As is the true impact of christianity. Consider that it was as late as the 19th century the belief in the pending apocalypse started to fade. Consider that until then pretty much everyone in the western world truly believed they were living in the end of days. We are talking the end of days in the old school biblical sense here.

( For a quick update on the subject check out the video course by Prof. Arthur Williamson - as well as this one:Terror of History: Mystics, Heretics, and Witches in the Western Tradition )

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Offtopic : I just saw that TTC has the Beethoven’s Piano Sonatas course by Robert Greenberg on sale. Check it out. That one is HOT.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

More Offtopic:

in a bizarre burst of offtopic synchronicity I have just been tentatively trying to work out where to start with Beethoven (actually any 'classical') generally. This probably deserves a topic of its own, but where on earth should the bleepcore, ambient, death-jazz fan start?

Jim

Actually this is utterly offtopic - damn you, Stella Artois!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Hmmm. I like being a noise musician and I play unattended pianos in hotel lobbies too.


I dunno about you, but I consider it a fact that you are a seasoned muscian with great skills. I have heard you play live. People weren´t dragging you off the stage were they? Nope, they were in fact lining up in order to join you and perhaps have chat with you. Very Happy

You should also consider that nothing I have ever heard you have done can be considered "noise music". It is not even close. I am considering sending you a CD of so called noise music.

I cannot speak for the rest of the guys who have been posting in this thread, but personally I don´t consider noise music to be a viable genre. ( As sound art it works just fine. ) "Noise music" was a sensible term some decades ago. Today things are a bit different. It is now about the music and nothing else. Noise, whatever that is, is fully accepted. It is quite possible and completely OK to make music with "noise" components. This is 2005 and not 1905. Is it intellectual or radical to stand on a stage and make awful noise? I don´t think so.
People have mentioned Autechre. That isn´t noise. It is music. As is Lustmord´s Zoetrope.. and the list goes on.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zembla wrote:
More Offtopic:

in a bizarre burst of offtopic synchronicity I have just been tentatively trying to work out where to start with Beethoven (actually any 'classical') generally. This probably deserves a topic of its own, but where on earth should the bleepcore, ambient, death-jazz fan start?

Jim

Actually this is utterly offtopic - damn you, Stella Artois!




Right.. we will be starting out with a selection from the period 1910-1960 and study some of the crossover works first. Stay away from Mozart, Haydn, Mahler and Schubert for now.

Igor Stravinsky - The Soldier’s Tale
Sergei Prokofiev - Andrei Nevsky
Carl Orff - Carmina Burana

And now it is time to go forward again
..get the 80s recording of Arne Nordheim - The Tempest ( Stormen )
Philip Glass - Koyaanisqatsi ( get the newer one.. not the first.. )
And now for a long travel back in time.. Pergolesi - Stabat Mater - the naxos recording will do just fine.

Tell me when you are finished with this lot and we will then take a dip into Franz Lizst and Pagani. After that we will go forward to the 1930s-50s and look into Kurt Weill and european jazz. Then we will check out some german underground music from the late 60s before we listen to Bach.

You kow, this is all about understanding influences, culture and ideas.

No matter what you do.. do NOT listen to Haydn yet. That will ruin everything.


The classcial music thread continues at http://electro-music.com/forum/post-54886.html

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