Filling a hole

Michael Chocholak · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:50 pm Post subject: Filling a hole

With the demise of Mp3.com, artists and listeners are both left with a huge hole in the web. I'd like to toss out some speculations and see if anyone has any ideas. Idea

Seems to me that we are all left with two obvious options.

One is that CNET or perhaps another host like Soundclick simply picks up where Mp3.com left off - although it could not really be the same since many artists that were represented there got burned out, walked away, drifted away, passed away, etc and will not return. We sort of rebuild the Library at Alexandria in The Return of the Son of Mp3.com Part II; The Sequel. A Donnie Rumsfeldian 'long, hard slog' (which really sounds to me like a giant petrified alien invertebrate) and it's 'status quo'. Listeners and artists get centralized exposure and access... and once again are held hostage to it. Confused

The other option is that we all remain in our allegiances to particular web tribes; ie the variety of hosting communities that Doru Malaia posted the other day. Which I think would still leave us in the dust of the fallen Tower of Babel. Individually and as communities we would be secure yet have greater flexibility. But it seems to me we are all out here to get exposure - to get our music out to people that want to hear it. This second scenario falls far short of what Mp3.com accomplished merely by existing.

(Although I have heard the argument that a site like Mp3.com was undesirable because there was so much to choose from, but personally I don’t get this. So that’s like you don’t go to the library because there are too many books?) Shocked

What I’m wondering is...

If we find ourselves going increasingly tribal, what are the ways to build connections between the various communities to achieve a greater - and more accessible whole? One that is within our control, not somebody elses. That’s really one of the primary things the net has represented to me, at least in theory. That and the fact that it should be driven by and responsive to the needs of the users; all of us.

To that end there are existing mechanisms that could to some extent help us move towards this goal;

We can build links from our own individual sites - but of course the web public would have to find those sites in the first place,

Many of us belong to more than one web community and can spread the word through forums - but you wouldn’t want to bring the same recommendations up again and again although otherwise the information will quickly disappear in aging threads,

Perhaps the concept of webrings could be expanded - although I think this would require cooperation between all the hosting sites which, we must remember, usually have their own profit oriented agendas and would probably not be idealistically motivated to share the marketplace,

We have webradio stations like Headtones & XStream - which rely on the good will of deeplinks from host sites, build their playlists subjectively based on the taste of the webmasters, and in any case could not hope to (and probably would not even want to) carry the burden of the million+ tracks & 250,000 artists that made up the former Mp3.com.

I’m ruminating, and I can’t really put my finger on it, but it seems that while being stunned, depressed, pissed off, etc in the wake of Vivendi’s corporate slaughter we may be a place that is ripe with potential and opportunity.

Or am I kidding myself here? Question

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elektro80 · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Filling a hole

Michael Chocholak · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:22 am Post subject:

That sounds good.

Have you checked out Archive.org? It's cumbersome and they work in fairly obscure formats (NO mp3), but it's huge - supposedly bigger than the Library of Congress - and growing, which if nothing else, means that the basic idea is supportable. (If by mistake you try Archive.net you'll get a guy apologizing for spam he isn't responsible for and if you try Archive.com you get a mail order porn site. Don't know what their policy on mp3's might be).

(They also have a 'Wayback Machine' which allows you to surf the net as it existed a few years ago - cool even if I can't see a practical application for it)

Anyway, yeah, a centralized site that could be catagorized, searched and would offer streams and downloads and links to artist pages if they have them, or to the host sites that they've posted on.

Gosh, just like Mp3.com.

Except non-corporate and stable (ha!). (The Archive, like Wikipedia, etc, is funded by donations which, I suppose, is even shakier than charging fees and taking a percentage of sales.) A co-op perhaps. The frameworks exist to do that.

In the absence of someone jumping on that concept, I'm suggesting bringing together some of those "communities & directories that no one notices" - as a network - so that they all become more viable.

As far as the curating thing goes... we all know what bad music is, but we probably couldn't reach consensus. If you come on to something you can't stand, you're just a click away from moving on to something else. I visited another forum recently on another site that was hashing out concerns about limiting the amount of music one could post in order to conserve server space and provide an incentive for people to sign up for paid accounts. Almost immediately a pop artist suggested that perhaps all the noise music should fine another more appropriate home on the web. Ha! Wonder what the noise artists thought of the pop music! Yeah, there was a lot of (in my opinion) lame music at Mp3.com, but so what. It's all worth it to be able to get to the "wonderfully weird and amazing music".

I think I'm just hoping for a new beast to arise before the feeding frenzy dumps us all back in a moot situation. Again.

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

There is never a feeding frenzy for art, which is sort of the point.

I always considered pop music to be noise music. Advertizement music. After all, how wide of a chasm is there between what you hear in TV commercials and on pop radio or MTV? Sell sell sell! I've never seen a Philip Glass video on MTV or heard him in a Burger King commercial, for example. No money in it. Thus is the world we live in.

Cyx

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 am Post subject:

POP is a serious problem because the concept of POP music involves both bad music and some really great music and a lot of seriously dull "me too" stuff. The usual common denominator for POP used to be the commercial side of it.. being pushed as a lifestyle product and this trend is in fact pretty old. I have a problem with stating that all POP music is bad musically. A fact is that a lot of talent and money is spent on seriously good craftmanship on some of those recordings. Pop as in popular music which is more popular than "other" music.. and surely in some instances made to be just that.. pop.. will probably always be around.. and this is OK with me. The POP industry is another thing.

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

Pop music, the lifestyle parade, most gratuitously demonstrated by rap videos.

Cyx

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:21 am Post subject:

just another "silly walk"

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:24 am Post subject:

right... and some lark vomit

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

"Look at me and all these beautiful mindless women surrounding me and all these friends I have and all this jewelry and all these six-figure cars and the mansion and this 24/7/365.25 parties I'm always having and all the alcohol and all the music and all of this can be yours, too, and buying my music will help you get here!"

Bullshit. Fnord. God it's great to be lucid.

Cyx

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:23 pm Post subject:

Hmm.. I hafta make myself a gin tonic now. Too much lucidity makes me dizzy.

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:40 pm Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:52 pm Post subject:

I've been reading a lot on this site about this issue of where to put the mp3 files. My thinking obviously considers making electro-music.com a download site. If I did that, then there would have to be income, because I don't have the bucks to pay for the servers and network. The network is the big cost, the servers aren't. Getting the software and running it are costs too. I haven't found and good freeware for this, but I'm still looking.

Several members have offered to provide sites to host the files, but I'm reluctant to follow up because of several reasons.

I'm thinking it would be better to let artists get their own sites, locally or where ever they find a good host. We, electro-music.com, could provide a listing and pointers to good music. We would continue to sell CDs. We could also use the existing store to sell music downloads. The software supports this. The listing of online music might attract members.

I'm looking for software to provide this. If anyone can recommend something please do.

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

I agree with Mosc here. I think that the lesson that nobody seems to be voicing regarding the MP3.COM fiasco is that it really is best to depend on yourself in this manner, have your own site, take care of your own business and thus not fall victim to what all of us did to CNET.

After all, in a sense, what was mp3.com but another dependency? That seems to be the way most people are illustrating it, myself included to some extent. Electro-music is a wonderful hub and community for us, but I think that diversifying it into the world of mp3.comesque hosting and streaming could be fatal in many respects.

I don't know, just my $0.02

Cyx

Michael Chocholak · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:11 am Post subject:

Well actually that is the kind of thing I am proposing.

I wasn't thinking of this site becoming a download site. I think what is going on here right now is great and agree that turning it into an mp3 host would be a mistake. That's not what I understand this site to be about.

Although I think it'd be great to have a specific page (above and beyond the existing links page, memberlist and forums) listing links that would be specific stream & download sites for the artists represented here so one could easily & quickly jump straight to a listening experience. Perhaps some deeplinks could be there as well.

But in the absence of monolithic community based host (which would undoubtedly have many political problems of its own), I'm suggesting that the best way to approach the situation would be to really promote the concept of a networked musical community, well beyond what we currently have. Maybe a next tier hierarchy of cooperating mp3 hosts that would carry a common directory listing a full range of artists regardless of which site actually hosted their tracks. More hosts allowing deeplinking for entry level accounts would be nice to see too.

After the Mp3.com experience I don't think anyone wants to be held hostage again. It will be interesting to see how successful CNET is in attracting former Mp3.com artists after being involved in burning them to a crisp.

And it would be great if everybody had their own site and could carry their own tracks, but that's not reality for most of us. If you want a goodly chunk of your music out their, you're going to rely on a host. When somebody comes up with the next generation of high quality sound format with even greater compression, this situation might change. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

egw · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:05 am Post subject:

Mezmer makes some good points here.
I think we should leave the mp3 hosting and streaming to sites that specialize in that. Electro-music can be a kind of portal, providing a convenient way to find music made by the artists here, and music recommended by the artists here. Why bother with the infrastructure, it's already there and costs the most to implement. What is most needed is the higher layer, the value added intelligence and commentary.
However, I still think it's a good idea to have some sample clips for each of the CDs for sale here. You will sell a lot more music if people can hear it first.
And better if they don't have to go to another site to do that - every extra click you add reduces the number of sales.
Over the next month or so, I'll be looking for sites to host mp3s for Mutation Vector, Fringe Element and Holosphere. I'm ruling out any place that makes you pay to put your music there. So I guess there are a limited number of good options. I would like to hear if others have any suggestions.

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

Might as well do some sort of "Electro-Music Radio" stream, the most efficient compromise.

Cyx

mosc · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:42 pm Post subject:

OK, let me ask out front. What do you want as an artist/musician here on this site that you don't have? I've got ideas, of course, but they are all half baked.

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

I like what's here already. I think that doing too many different things reduces the quality of everything involved. There are many things that could be done, but I think that first and foremost, EM is a community. I wouldn't do anything that might jeopardize this.

Cyx

AgentA · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:17 am Post subject:

AgentA · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:42 am Post subject:

I can't still grasp what you envision Mezmer.

Ultimately, isn't it all here? On the web? Just a few google searches away?

Is it the fragmentation that bothers you?

Is it the specialization of sites that bothers you?

Do you feel that corporate interests seek to stifle accessiblity to
independent media in order to be the dominant content provider? and that we need something just as powerful in establishing a presence in opposition? to champion underground or independent interests?

I'm reminded of how I often forget that there are other possibilites besides the existing models.

Okay re-read again, it seems one of your biggest concerns is exposure and promotion? That there is a potential for networking that would increase exposure?

Michael Chocholak · Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:55 am Post subject:

Yup, you got it!

Composers, musicians, music junkies (and we all tend to frequent the same circles which appears to us as the world at large) are all going to dig around until they find what they are looking for as second nature. Your average surfer doesn't. How do they find us? Do a Google search for electronic music mp3 download? I just did that & got 579,000 hits. The first ten are hosting sites. And the first hosting site with any of my music is #9 (IUMA) which purely by coincidence actually has some of my electronic music. I’m just saying there’s got to be a better way - got to make it more user friendly & streamlined to get those listeners (and potential buyers) hooked into us in fewer steps.

What I was envisioning was a situation where those 32 mp3 hosting sites that DoruMalia posted would form one big loose community in opposition to another monolithic corporate site - which is what I'm assuming CNET will try to create. So if I'm on DMusic and IUMA, but somebody is at Besonic or Ampcast and is looking for an incredibly talented electroacoustic composer (ha!), they would check out a directory (identical on each site) and see that my music was available, but at a different site. All the hosting sites would cooperate, share artists and refer listeners openly & freely. It doesn't matter if the artist is selling or giving it away. It would create a block of artists the size of the old Mp3.com, but still fairly fluid and independent as a foil to corporate control.

elektro80 · Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:47 am Post subject:

Great idea. Hmm.. interesting.

egw · Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:03 am Post subject:

I doubt that those 32 sites will cooperate, since they are competing with each other. But someone could build a portal that intelligently searches all of them for you.

Cyxeris · Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY

It isn't up to the sites to cooperate.

It's up to us to.

Cyx

Michael Chocholak · Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:50 pm Post subject: