statements by iran's president

[jksuperstar]

Maybe the president of Iran simply shares the same inept communication skills as the US president.

[mosc]

"just symbolic speech", "just talking like this for local political reasons", "just inept", "nothing to worry about", "he's over the top but so are others", "don't worry, he'd be insane to do what he says", "don't worry, the people in his country would never go along with that", "don't worry, if he tried to do that the world wouldn't let him get away with it."... These are things people said about Hitler in the 1930s.

[Kassen]

I don´t think Iran right now is comparable to Hitler just because people say those things. I think it´s much more apropriate to compare the arabian states to people accused of comunism in the 60´s or strange women during the witch trials.

Isn´t Iraq expected to pay in oil for getting it´s civilian areas bombed, it´s inhabitants tortured and humiliated much like the "witches" were made to pay their own trials? Neither "WMD´s" nor ties to Alquida were found, much like no familiars could be found nor did the witches realy float but that doesn´t matter because after enough torture they confess anyway.

If anything is currently compareable to WOII it´s that people don´t seem to believe there are realy camps and that people are getting deported without trial.

Deknow; I had gotten the impression that it was planned by the U.S. to invade Iran next. If they aren´t then I´m as baffled as you are. In that case it would indeed be quite counterproductive to make those threads now. Perhaps Iran´s president has simply gone a bit funny in his head? It´s my opinion that nearly all politicians are a bit funny and I don´t see why Iran would be a exception. If Iran would turn out to have smart, sane politicians then I´d be in favour of immediately buying those like soccer players are sold; we could use them well.

[mosc]

[Kassen]

Well, no, they don´t need to. If I understand the news correctly the Dutch government itself is doing quite a nice job at funding terrorist groups that bomb The Hague. However, even if there is curently no evidence that the U.S. funds Dutch terrorist groups, I don´t believe that the Dutch secret service would start funding islamic terorism if it weren´t for the U.S. war on terror. That same section of the Dutch government is responcible for our phone taps, the most per head of any country in the world. They don´t manage those taps themselves; a Israelian company does.

Still, that threat was in protection of U.S. infantry, probably the people like the ones that traded the photographs of mutilated corpses for the pornography, at least those looked like some good canidates to be judged in a international court to me. Facinatingly that site apeared to be hosted in the Netherlands too...

So far for the trivia (I´m not making this stuff up).

I´m still more scared of the U.S. then of Iran. The U.S. has a far worse track record of wars (if we only considder the era in which both countries existed), has far, far more WMD´s and also anounced a willingness to use those agressively. I don´t aprove of Iran´s stance in this at all but Iran doesn´t realy worry me that much.

I predict that Iran won´t attack Israel and that the U.S. will attack Iran. That it will turn out Iran didn´t have any signifficant weapons and that there will be yet more cruelty, more violations of the Geneva convetion and that yet again the U.S. won´t be charged with any of those. I also predict that Iran will have to pay for it all and that the contracts will go to U.S. companies.

[mosc]

"It is tough to make predictions, especially about the future."—Yogi Berra

[Kassen]

Indeed it is, but some general tendencies can be observed. If you drink four beers now you'll need to go to the toilet soon. for example. That's a pritty safe prediction.

This one was somewhat less safe but it's still not as wild as "I predict that the next u.s. president will be female and that she'll mary michael jackson one year later."

In retrospect the cold war seems like a very good idea to me. War is big business so some people like it for that. I was just thinking that it'd be great if those people could make their cash without anyone having to die for it. Then it ocured to me that the cold war was just that, in a way..

[mosc]

Israel Dismantles: World's Problems End...

[Kassen]

Let's get it all straight.

I'm all for non-practicing and pacifist Jews (the ones that take their texts literally and act acording should be locked up as the dangerous criminals and rasists they are, together with Christians that live that way, fortunatly there don't seem to be too many of those. Flatening churches is not acceptable behaviour in a modern civilisation, if you hear voices that tell you to do so then you should be treated and society needs to be protected from you untill you are.)

I'm very much in favour of everybody having a place to live.

I'm strongly against the militant side of Israel though I don't considder them nearly as dangerous as the U.S..

Personally if I lived in that area, whatever you call it, I'd move out of there as soon as possible. Moving to Australia or New Zealand would seem like a especially sensible thing to do at that point.

There is a huge difference between the religious state Israel and the actual geographical location, just like there are huge differences between anti-semitism and being highly critical of Israelian politics.

This whole "armagedon any day now" thing sounds kinda exciting but I hope it can wait untill I release at least two more records.

[deknow]

...this begs the question:

what to do with those that take kassen's texts literally and act accordingly?

deknow

[Kassen]

I'm not aware of encouraging anybody to do anything that's forbidden, either in the Netherlands or in the U.S. or in Scandinavia (where the servers are).

I certainly never told anyone to flaten any churches or wage wars. Admittedly I once encouraged a person to stone another but that person was a Christian who was trying to convert me and I only explained to him that he should stone me since that's what his book told him. I actually handed him a brick that happened to be lying around. He diclined. I told him that if he was right then he should go to hell for failing to obey the bible. I doubt he ever realy read it, I quoted Exodus to him (to the letter), he claimed that passage was from Leviticus, I looked it up at home to be sure and I was right.

I remember when I bought my bible. I was in a second hand bookstore and a couple overheard a friend and me looking for a bilbe. They interupted in our conversation to point out a especially nice copy, then expressed delight at my intentions to buy one. They were quite surprised when it turned out I was planning to read it. "all of it?" they asked quite shocked "yes, i want to know what's in it". I'd say they walked away in disbelief but fear that would be taken as a word-joke.


If there is one book that calls for mass murder, for genocide, for trading slaves and whole host of terrible things in adition to hatred yet gets excused for being "just symbolical" and "not meant to be taken literally" then it's the old testament. Far more copies were printed of that then of Mein Kampf. If we are going to compare Iran's prime minister's expressions to those of pre-WOII Hitler then surely we must do the same with the old testament. The large difference is that the first two are calling for the extermination of all Jews while the last calls for the extermination of all non-Jews. Why non-Jewish Chrstians would beleive such a thing is utterly beyond me but they don't seem to have any trouble picturing Christ as blue eyed and blond either.

Anyway I place the line there much like I place it with Iran. As long as they don't actually do it and just think it should be done at some indeterminate time in some abstract sense then I don't think they cause all that much harm. Practically speaking it seems that to the law being religious somehow counts as a partial excuse. Three years ago (I think) two Dutch Christian women killed a young child. They killed it by jumping up and down it's belly trying to exorsise a evil sprit. They only got two years in prison for that because of the religious reason. So, Deknow, to answer your question. people that believe what I say, as opposed to what the bible says, should in my opion be made judge or lawyer or legislator. Think of the childeren!

[elektro80]

[deknow]

http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2005/12/14/283466.html

Iran Leader Escalates Holocaust Rhetoric
By ALI AKBAR DAREINI, Associated Press Writer
2 hours ago

TEHRAN, Iran - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad escalated his anti-Israeli rhetoric Wednesday, calling the Holocaust a "myth" used by Europeans to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.

"Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets," Ahmadinejad told thousands of people in the southeastern city of Zahedan.

His remarks drew swift condemnation from Israel, Germany and the European Commission. Germany said the remarks would affect upcoming negotiations over Iran's nuclear program.

Ahmadinejad last week questioned whether the Nazi destruction of 6 million European Jews during World War II occurred and said Israel should be moved to Europe. He also provoked an international outcry in October when he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

But Wednesday was the first time he publicly denied the Holocaust. Touring southeast Iran, Ahmadinejad said that if Europeans insist the Holocaust happened, then they are responsible and should pay the price.

"If you committed this big crime, then why should the oppressed Palestinian nation pay the price?" Ahmadinejad asked rhetorically.

"This is our proposal: if you committed the crime, then give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them so that the Jews can establish their country," he said, developing a theme he raised in Saudi Arabia last week.

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier called the remarks "shocking and unacceptable." He said the German government had summoned the Iranian charge d'affaires to make "unmistakably clear" its displeasure.

"I cannot hide the fact that this weighs on bilateral relations and on the chances for the negotiation process, the so-called nuclear dossier," Steinmeier said, referring to European talks with Iran on its nuclear program.

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said: "The repeated outrageous remarks of the Iranian president show clearly the mind-set of the ruling clique in Tehran and indicate clearly the extremist policy goals of the regime.

"The combination of fanatical ideology, a warped sense of reality and nuclear weapons is a combination that no one in the international community can accept," Regev added, referring to allegations that Iran is developing nuclear bombs.

In Brussels, Belgium, European Commission spokeswoman Emma Udwin said the president's comments were "completely unacceptable."

"We feel very strongly that Iran is damaging its own interests with these kind of remarks," she said.

Ahmadinejad said the West had harmed Muslims, invaded their countries and plundered their wealth.

"If your civilization consists of aggression, making oppressed people homeless, suffocating the voices of justice and bringing poverty to a majority of the world's people, we say loudly that we hate your hollow civilization," he said.

Ahmadinejad has been unapologetic about taking Iran on a more openly defiant course, insisting on Iran's right to develop its nuclear program _ which it insists is peaceful _ and often using rhetoric reminiscent of the 1980s heyday of the Islamic Revolution.

The president's views sharply conflict with those of predecessor Mohammad Khatami, a moderate who used to call for dialogue among civilizations and promoted a low-key understanding with the United States that stopped short of diplomatic relations.

Inside Iran, Ahmadinejad's remarks have been criticized by some of his conservative allies, who fear he is hurting the country's image. Moderate Iranians have called on the ruling Islamic establishment to rein in the president.

But Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has the ultimate say, has backed Ahmadinejad's calls for Israel's elimination.

Ahmadinejad criticized the United States for refusing to sell Iran spare parts for its civilian planes as part of its long-standing embargo against the country.

Iran has suffered a series of plane accidents _ most recently on Dec. 6, when an aging U.S.-made military transport plane crashed into a tall building in Tehran, killing 115 people. Iranian officials have blamed Washington for the crashes, saying they are partly caused by the difficulty in obtaining spare parts.

"No country is authorized to impose spare-part sanctions against another country. Nothing can justify this," Ahmadinejad said Wednesday.

Ahmadinejad said the denial of spare parts was a reason why Iran would not trust Western promises to give it nuclear fuel. The country is currently at loggerheads with the West over its insistence on enriching uranium to fuel its first nuclear reactor, which is due to start generating electricity next year.

The Europeans, with U.S. backing, do not trust Iran to have its own enrichment process since highly enriched uranium can be used for nuclear warheads. Europe has offered to sell enriched uranium for the reactor, but Iran has rejected this.

The United States is pushing to have Iran referred to the U.N. Security Council, where it could face sanctions for violating a nuclear arms control treaty.

Ahmadinejad said that if Iran gave in on the nuclear dispute, there was no guarantee the West might not refuse to sell nuclear fuel in the future.

"I assure you that we won't step back one inch from our nuclear rights," the president told the crowd, drawing chants of "Death to America!"

Iran is due to resume negotiations on the nuclear issue with envoys from Britain, France and Germany starting Dec. 21 in Vienna, Austria.

[mosc]

As I understand it, Ahmadinejad has never travelled outside of Iran. All he knows is the Radical Islamic nonsense. It's a shame when someone like this gets to run a country. Good thing he doesn't have nuclear weapons yet. I feel sorry for the Iranians who have to live in a country ruled by these thugs. I know many people living in the US that have fled from Iran. They are so exasperated by what's going on there that they prefer to be called Persians instead of Iranians.

[peripatitis]

New member here
Very refreshing to see musicians engaged in important topics like this , sometimes we get too self involved.

I am 100 % with Kassen on this .

I obviously do not agree with Iran's president , but if i were a muslim in that area and had to live with this Israeli goverment i'd propably share the same feelings.
Unfortunately Europe and the U.S took a wounded child at the end of wwII
and turned it into a spoiled ,greedy beast .

It's obvious that the whole situation stems from the palestinian issue and what has followed since .
The holocaust is irrelevant in this discussion , since i don't think that anyone could blame the muslims of middle east with either the intention or any action on that matter .

It is however true that this parts of the world regardless of their own problems have been mistreated repeatedly by the British , the russians , the Americans and for evident economic reasons

If you look in the 80's the only western country officially supporting the fair palestinian claim was Greece and although i am proud of it , we all know how much gravity a support like this has (none).

Even if you look at little things , like european sport tournaments or music contests , e.t.c you will always find israel participating but no middle east country .
These things seem minor for us until one realises there are more profound reasons for such omissions.Why do we regard israel connected to europe and not lebanon for example ?

Now let's take a look at the stupidity of the whole issue after the september 11
The U.S attacks the technologically evolved Aghganistan and after managing to conquer this mighty Beast , attacks the ever posing threat of Irak .After that they are constantly talking about the dangerous Iran.
In the mean time mathematic calculations reveal a score of 2000 americans vs 500.000 muslims dead.

From simple mathematics we know that Σ (human life value) = (number of people) * (petrol consumption) from which we get the terrifying analogy of one billion Americans dead for every Muslim.

If you combine this with the information that Terrorist leaders have been trained by C.I.A (Something like the cisco certificate for network engineers) we now have a legitimate reason to Panic .

The Free world is under attack by this extraterrestial superpower formed by vicious pastrami eaters !!!

The brave western mind however is not easily trapped in a oneway street.
Following the Grand tradition of our past we find an ingenious solution .

No enemy, however profound could foresee this .

We willingly hand the protection of everything we hold sacred to the only country in this world that has actually used a mass destruction weapon (clever , clever , clever) .

So even if the enemy intends to build this weapon , even if he obtain's at some point the technology to do so , even if he finally builds one , we still have the advantage of having an ally , that actually has the nerve to drop one .

So with this well thought policy , regarding also the little things that i've mentioned before we have basically criminalized the Whole middle east area (apart from the poor Israelians) , we discriminate against immigrants from that countries and of course we have secured enough petrol for the U.S and the U.k to be happy.

But do you really think that middle east countries are a threat for our 'Free world ' ?

If one takes a look at the new antiterror laws in U.S and Europe , it seems that our profound leaders pose this threat .

After all i didn't see any muslim suggesting that we should arrest citizens and keep them indefinitely with no charges , tap telephones , kill innocent suspects (the british paradigma) , abduct citizens e.t.c

I have no preference between the Iranian president and George Bush ,
both are people that i would prefer to cut my hand before voting them
but isn't it true that president Bush also had never travelled outside U.S before he became one ?

[Kassen]

[deknow]

[Kassen]

[mosc]

Let us try to be cool and as respectful as possible.

Yes, the Americans and Dutch don't have all that stellar a record of respecting foreign cultures and living in peace with others. Much of the beautiful architecture in Den Haag was built with profits from the slave trade to America. None of us have all that clean a history.

Still, I love Den Haag and would speak out if some government started making treats about removing it from the face of the Earth. I have done that on the front page of this site. I did this becasue a member from Den Haag brought it to my attention that the US governement has a law authorizing an envasion under certain circumstances. I do that and I still love America.

I love Israel too. Not that I condone every action of the Israeli government, but I certainly think Israel deserves to exist, as much as Holland, the USA, or Iran.

Iran is a great and horrible country too.

[Kassen]

Yes, Mosc, that's basically what I meant. Israel is a particularly complicated example. When one says "america" one may refer to the physical place, to the rather remarkable culture with it's many facets or to the major player in the world's politics. It' s become clear to me that those are very different things and even within all three fields there are huge areas that hardly seem linked at all to the casual eye. With Israel you get all of those and on top of that a large amount of religious conotations.

This can get very confusing very quickly. I know this from personal experience. "the Hague" as a word in Dutch often gets used to indicate politics in general; "The Hague has no idea what the people feel". When me and my friends use it it generally refers to the The Hague underground electro scene and is understood to also include people in -say- Gothenburg; "The Hague rocks the planet".

It's regretable that this gets so confusing but perhaps it's even more regretable that some fractions are activily making it all confusing in order to further their own political goals. In my own opinion some people that are advancing the beauty of Rotterdam architecture as a example of the superiority of Dutch culture would do well to visit Istanbull. That's the clearest example I can think of but I fear it requires seeing both Rotterdam and Istanbull to fully apreceate.

[peripatitis]

Perhaps i was misunderstood , i did not say that these antidemocratic behaviours are foreign to the muslims , i just stated the obvious that responsible for these anti-terror law's are the political leaders and the citizens of these countries.

Refering specifically to the British example (since i was living there at the time ) i was socked to find that the public couldn't care less !

In fact the 'riot' concering the fox hunt (a few months earlier) was ten times the one oposing the antiterror law (and i am talking about the period before the london bombings).

So my argument is that the 'free world ' is endangered only by it's own inhabitants.

As for the U.S external policy i think it's evident for any intelligent man that it has secured at least 3 decades of terrorism and bloodshed.

Or does anyone out there believe that the thousands inoccent muslims that died because of this policy will push in the direction of mutual understanding and Respect ?

Of course U.S is a superpower and as such they are neither better or worse than the ones before them.
What is annoying is this obsesiveness to get 'allies' where they don't exist .
In Greece for example 99% of the public was from the beggining against the war in Aghganistan and in Irak.
This doesn't mean that we hate the americans or that we do not sympathise with the 9-11 , however there is this ridiculus constant pressure from the Bush administration for us to get involved (send troops ,amunition e.t.c).
This is at least disrespectful to the Greek public and insulting to our democratic way of life.

The way i see it U.S is trying to project a problem of their own to the rest of the world.

Kassen : i am suprised to hear this concerning the Dutch police !
i've never noticed such a behaviour in the Hague and i always thought that dutch people were quite open to different ethnicities .
By the way i am a he

[seraph]

[deknow]

[Kassen]

[Kassen]

Deknow;

To short it all out; I don't think we disagree on the core of these points at all, what we have here is a slight misunderstanding over some aparently unclear phrasings of mine