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play
Joined: Feb 08, 2004
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 Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:17 pm Post subject:
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this judgement seems more like a statement of position than an attempt to collect royalties on 2 second samples. No one can prove that your 2second snare is yours and not someone else's. The only way to prevent this kind of sampling is to use dvd's with constantly changing encryption. That's not really practical either. It hasn't worked for movie companies.
This gives the RIAA a license to try even more extreme methods of protection but all I can see it doing is hastening the end for big labels that suck by further alienating their customers.
So, Hooray! This is a fine judgement and should go down in the history books as one of the great examples of american democracy! |
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Oskar
Joined: Jul 29, 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:47 pm Post subject:
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| trash wrote: | seriously though
there should be some kind of licence board
with me at the helm of course
and any artist that employs *non-creative' use of samples*
should be struck off
and perhaps executed too..!
it would stop the problem of ppl like elton john
xxx |
Good idea! I propose "The Grenadier" in Hangleton as a suitable location for irregular gatherings of this board. Oh yes.
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:51 pm Post subject:
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Cool.. do they sell fish and chips there?
...uh..  that was supposed to be fish and trips I guess.. sorry..
....and ludes
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Oskar
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:56 pm Post subject:
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| play wrote: | this judgement seems more like a statement of position than an attempt to collect royalties on 2 second samples. No one can prove that your 2second snare is yours and not someone else's. The only way to prevent this kind of sampling is to use dvd's with constantly changing encryption. That's not really practical either. It hasn't worked for movie companies.
This gives the RIAA a license to try even more extreme methods of protection but all I can see it doing is hastening the end for big labels that suck by further alienating their customers.
So, Hooray! This is a fine judgement and should go down in the history books as one of the great examples of american democracy! |
I think there might be something in what you're saying. Once again the biggies are about to try and shoot themselves in the collective foot. So far, they've only sustained minor scratches, but at some point in the not-too-distant future, one of these bullets must hit them where it really hurts - the funnybone, according to Mr Bruce Springsteen, esq.
Personally, I don't have a huge problem with sampling, looping and all that, but GOD, it can get boring sometimes. I think it's rather too convenient for lazy buggers to use samples in a so-called "creative"way. What they mostly achieve, is kicking up such a lot of dust that you don't notice the mavericks and geniuses (should that maybe be "genii?) who make a noise I might find worthwhile. Death to all lazy, untalented samplers and loopers, say I. More space for those who do it well, whatever it is that they do. 
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mosc
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:58 pm Post subject:
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I suspect you're right, nobody is going after you if
1) you don't have a huge revenue stream derived from the music, and
2) the sample can not be recognized.
But, apparently it establishes the legal basis to go after samplers no matter how short the sample. There are certainly cases where specific two second samples are quite recognizable. There was an old quiz program called "Name That Tune". It was amazing to see people recognize music after only one second.
This particular case doesn't seem to be going after the record labels' customers, does it? It seems to be going after competitors of the musicians that are lifting their sounds. Seems like this would protect the customers.
But asside from the legal issues and keeping our dislike for the RIAA on hold for a minute, it seems to me that if someone samples another artist's music without their permission, and claims it as their own music, then that someone is an artistic boob. |
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Oskar
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:00 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | Cool.. do they sell fish and chips there?
...uh.. that was supposed to be fish and trips I guess.. sorry..
....and ludes |
Nah, they mainly do a decent "Ploughman's" and their beer has been "homogenized" I forget which particular brewery has taken over, but it's a quiet, slightly boring place, perfect for plotting to overthrow the Government - and they used to have cracking pub quiz nights. 
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Oskar
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:08 pm Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | I suspect you're right, nobody is going after you if
1) you don't have a huge revenue stream derived from the music, and
2) the sample can not be recognized.
But, apparently it establishes the legal basis to go after samplers no matter how short the sample. There are certainly cases where specific two second samples are quite recognizable. There was an old quiz program called "Name That Tune". It was amazing to see people recognize music after only one second.
This particular case doesn't seem to be going after the record labels' customers, does it? It seems to be going after competitors of the musicians that are lifting their sounds. Seems like this would protect the customers.
But asside from the legal issues and keeping our dislike for the RIAA on hold for a minute, it seems to me that if someone samples another artist's music without their permission, and claims it as their own music, then that someone is an artistic boob. |
I've read interviews with both George Clinton and James Brown where they've quite clearly stated that they feel good about having their satuff sampled, and as far as I know, these two gents are the instigators of the most-sampled music in the Universe. Mind you, there's a guy called Clyde Stubblefield who used to drum for JB, and he's apparently THE most sampled drummer in the world. Anyone know his stance on this? See, like I said, I don't have a problem with folks using sound snippets, extracts from tunes etc, "Cantaloop" by US3 ( I think?) being a good example of creative sampling. What I DO mind is when people can't be bothered to organise a studio session and get a good drummer to play the grooves you want. These "artists" can't even be bothered to program drum parts, let alone learn how to create a "real" playing situation. BOOORING!!!
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:15 pm Post subject:
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| Oskar wrote: | | These "artists" can't even be bothered to program drum parts, let alone learn how to create a "real" playing situation. BOOORING!!! |
Too true
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:16 pm Post subject:
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| If JB and George Clinton want to give away the rights carte blanche to people who sample their music, that's one thing. Sampling someone's music without their permission is something else - don't you think? |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:28 pm Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | | If JB and George Clinton want to give away the rights carte blanche to people who sample their music, that's one thing. Sampling someone's music without their permission is something else - don't you think? |
Two different things.. yes. BTW: I seriously doubt JB and Clinton actually can give a charte blance. Most probably there is already various rights managment deals that will prevent them to actually do this. Their labels are probably owning the actual recordings too. So.. there is probably not anything available anywhere these guys can actually give away.
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Oskar
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:29 pm Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | | If JB and George Clinton want to give away the rights carte blanche to people who sample their music, that's one thing. Sampling someone's music without their permission is something else - don't you think? |
I agree wholeheartedly. Btw, I'm not sure if those masters of FUNK!!!! actually said they didn't want paying, it was more that they didn't see the point in all those legal manouevering to make life hard for other artists. The ones I feel really bad for, are those fanrtastic drummers - Clyde Stubblefield, Zigaboo Modeliste, Bernard "Pretty" Purdie, to name but three, who barely got paid when they laid down those fantastic grooves, and now they get ripped off again, just like all those old Blues artists. I'm gonna stop right there, before I go on a rant of epic proportions. 
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jksuperstar
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:42 pm Post subject:
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| Well, if it turns out the RIAA is shooting themselves in the foot, it will only open the door for more independent artists. It'd be nice to hear good music again. Once there's internet streams into my car, I won't need crappy radio anyways, and I'll listen to new artists who are just that...artists. Alot of this is forcing people onto the 'net to discover small time bands anyway. Sooner or later, the independent artists will find a trusty way to sell their art direct to the customers. Lots of choices on how to do this, but it's the users that will decide what will be the most popular form in the long run. Not the RIAA. |
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play
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:31 am Post subject:
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| Oskar wrote: | | mosc wrote: | | If JB and George Clinton want to give away the rights carte blanche to people who sample their music, that's one thing. Sampling someone's music without their permission is something else - don't you think? |
I agree wholeheartedly. Btw, I'm not sure if those masters of FUNK!!!! actually said they didn't want paying, it was more that they didn't see the point in all those legal manouevering to make life hard for other artists. The ones I feel really bad for, are those fanrtastic drummers - Clyde Stubblefield, Zigaboo Modeliste, Bernard "Pretty" Purdie, to name but three, who barely got paid when they laid down those fantastic grooves, and now they get ripped off again, just like all those old Blues artists. I'm gonna stop right there, before I go on a rant of epic proportions. :twisted: |
It really depends on whether you treat art as property or process. If it's property then I'm in the wrong game. If it's process then who cares where some sound came from? The meaning of sound changes with the context even if its source is discernible. In fact, it's source is often part of its meaning though its meaning is different than what it was in the context of its source. The most blatant example is sampling a political speech and reorganizing the words. This is often more subtle but nonetheless a valid technique. Sampling is often used to critique a genre or artist. Even more frequently, a sample is a synechdoche. This is the soul of remixing and its an art which in my opinion only grows more rich as things are sampled and recontexualized further and further. Of course there is a lot of drivel out there but that's just sturgeon's law.
Now to the property thing. I feel this issue should be restricted to the cost of physical media. Each publisher/artist should be able to make a decision about how this is done. If they wanna charge money, cool. If not, cool. But it's totally separate from the art that is the process and I reject the idea that art is a commodity.
Any anger surrounding the recognition of the artist is a hurt ego, pure and simple which is unrelated to the artwork itself and is only a property of the artist. Not to say I'm immune to this but I try not to let it stifle the creativity of others. What about people that plagiarize? They're phoneys and they know it and most of the time they get caught. And sometimes, even plagiarisn is an artistic statement. |
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mosc
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:58 am Post subject:
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Interesting post. I like that property vs. process concept.
In our society, we can have it both ways, it's up to the individual artist. That's the function of the copyright laws. It protects people who have the property view, but there is freedom to release the material as well. It seems that we get into trouble when trying to impose the process view on the property owners, or visa versa I guess.
There are many judgement calls and nothing is going to be perfect. I guess you can legally sample the President of the United States, but maybe not a poet on the street. I don't know. |
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play
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:05 am Post subject:
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The fact is people will do it whether it's legal or not. Making it illegal means it's an even more powerful expression.
And there's art in the struggle between materialists and idealists. |
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aquanaut
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:10 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | | In fact, it's source is often part of its meaning though its meaning is different than what it was in the context of its source. |
Pretty much the reason why i'm into it.There is a satisfaction when a sample has a second life. It might be a trisomic reincarnation, but at least you did'nt bought those floppy for nothing.
Copyright is an issue i have to put aside when sampling. I have to be able to sample everything without restriction. Am i stealing other people's music? Yes, i do it all the time, it's a tribute, in fact everytime i downloaded music here, a took a sample from it. My next victim: Tim Berne. I'm not gonna learn alto sax anytime soon. |
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Oskar
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:17 am Post subject:
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| _•°ø wrote: | | Quote: | | In fact, it's source is often part of its meaning though its meaning is different than what it was in the context of its source. |
Pretty much the reason why i'm into it.There is a satisfaction when a sample has a second life. It might be a trisomic reincarnation, but at least you did'nt bought those floppy for nothing.
Copyright is an issue i have to put aside when sampling. I have to be able to sample everything without restriction. Am i stealing other people's music? Yes, i do it all the time, it's a tribute, in fact everytime i downloaded music here, a took a sample from it. My next victim: Tim Berne. I'm not gonna learn alto sax anytime soon. |
And there's the rub: I may be too old-fashioned, elitist undemocratic and what have you, but I must say this: Stealing, appropriation, call it what you will is VALID - all the greats did it to some extent (except maybe Picasso and Stravinskij); For me, the problems arise when you get an artist(e) who says " I'm not gonna learn the craft behind the art!" When a visual artist can't even be bothered to work out which end of a brush to hold, how the colours are placed in the colour spectrum and so on, or whe n a musician says he/she doesn't intend to learn ANY instrument, ANY theory, then I'm sorry, I have a hard time taking them seriously. I'm not saying you have to be a virtuoso or have studied counterpoint at the Leipzig Conservatory of Music, but I think that, to make music, you should be able to go beyond "Three Blind Mice."
Back to the copyright issue: Some of the people in this thread have the intellectual power to run in circles around me when it comes to rationalising that sampling is the SAMPLER'S business, hang the SAMPLEE (For lack of a better word).
I fear this might fall on deaf ears, but is it really just egotism and a lack of generousness for a great musician - who has honed his art and craft for years, quite likely earning a mere pittance in the process - to want some compensation when someone uses his chops as a basis for something which without those specific sounds would have been just workaday, boring stuff? I get the feeling that this is a bit like Jean Genet - "Property is theft." A very facile statement, I find.
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Oskar
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:22 am Post subject:
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To clarify: To be called a musician one shouldn't have to be a virtuoso, but I feel very strongly that one should learn the basics of at least ONE instrument. Music is a PHYSICAL thng, just as much as it is an emotional and an intellectual thing.
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paul e.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:35 am Post subject:
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i heard william shatner encourages people to sample from his albums...mmhhh.. any takers?
other than that, i love sampling just the heavy breathing of the kool and the gang drummer...
it takes some serious wave-surgery, but i edit out all of the music elements and just use the heavy-breathing parts..mhh..is this ok?
oh yeah...i also sampled the cough in 'sweet leaf' by Black Sabbath..
oppss..mind you i could have just 'performed' that myself!
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Oskar
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:38 am Post subject:
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| paul wrote: | | i heard william shatner |
HE DID WHAT?
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elektro80
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:00 pm Post subject:
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This dude? Old Kirkie?
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:30 pm Post subject:
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| Oskar wrote: | | all the greats did it to some extent (except maybe Picasso and Stravinskij); For me, the problems arise when you get an artist(e) who says " I'm not gonna learn the craft behind the art!" |
Picasso did "borrow" elements and styles.. ideas and references. Stravinski borrowed phrases... he quoted and whatnot.
When is art authentic? Traditionally art has been about tradition and skills. ( I am here using the modern unerstanding of the term art.. the holistic one.. that showed up in on the scene some 250 years ago.. )
Modern jazz has gotta to be one of the least authentic art forms ever. Most skilled performers are ripping off Coltrane and the lot.. stealing techniques, phrases etc etc.. and the it is seemingly copying the old ( or new masters ) masters the whole idea of jazz is about. I have heard jazz musicans do some nasty sampling without the use of samplers.. and I am possibly the only guy being embarrased by skilled performers acting like some cheap tribute band.
The whole argument about sampling and stealing only makes sense if we talk about pop music. Some trends are hopefully fads caused by wrong medication. A few years back it was trendy to grab old pop songs, classcial music, smooth jazz and throw in some backbeat drum loops.
Artistic integrity my ass.
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paul e.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:34 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | A few years back it was trendy to grab old pop songs, classcial music, smooth jazz and throw in some backbeat drum loops.
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which one is that ? which song...examples ?
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elektro80
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:47 pm Post subject:
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loungy drum and bass.. Some local producers joined the club too and issued old norwegian pop songs from the 60s. Anyway.. you could hear this at any cafe across europe a few years ago. I guess this came late to the US but I guess that me too version of that Elvis song was a hit over there a few years ago?? Not?
Anyway.. that hiphop/rap thingie with Sissel Kyrkjebø singing Prokofiev was symptomatic .. Arrgh..
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