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elektro80
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 Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:22 am Post subject:
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| tim wrote: |
I'm not angry or frustrated, nor am I "venting". I was just stating facts on what I consider an ultimately moral issue.
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That is how I read your posts anyway. And I think it is a good thing to be stating facts. I should gear should be bought for the right reasons. As well as discarded for the right reasons.
It is quite right that the G2 does have some issues. For many types of use and synthesis these aren´t really too problematic at all, even if you consider viable alternatives that are fairly comparable to the G2. For certain stuff there is no doubt that there are more suitable tools, but yet.. this does not make the G2 a bad instrument. The G2 is what it is, and I think it is quite right to be factual about this.
There is of course more to a product than the product itself. Most issues we might have had with the NM-1 and the G2 can be directly traced back to how the company Clavia is managing its customer support and marketing. I would like to point out that I don´t find Clavia evil and this is more about utter confusion and incompetence. Right now I´m a little bit concerned with Clavia´s success as a high profiled polka board manufacturer. I do actually think that the products they make are absolutely OK, but I´m not convinced that they really understand their "success" or their market. This is not an uncommon problem for small companies like Clavia.
So.. enough about Clavia.. how much better are the others? 
The Blofeld firmware mess is a bad one, but still kinda predictable as this is the Waldorf way of doing business. 
And I should stop now as I´m just about to get started on PPG, Roland and Yamaha. ARP..anyone..     
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Tim Kleinert
Joined: Mar 12, 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:28 am Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: |
So.. enough about Clavia.. how much better are the others? |
I know. But that's my whole point. I always thought Clavia was better than the others.
But you are right. Let's stop this bickering.
peace,
t |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
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Location: victoria, canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:38 am Post subject:
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| tim wrote: | | The last true OS revision (meaning: work done on the actual G2 DSP sound engine) was OS 1.40 in January 2006. So, to me that isn't a 5 year span of maintenance and support, but only two at best. And I'm not talking about new bells and whistles here (""if I have feature X or synth Y, or box Z, then I will be able to make the best music ever"), but simply the implementation of publicly announced features -or not even that- just the fixing of (sometimes severely compromising) bugs would have been enough for me. |
It is true, after 1.40 we saw no new OS bug fixes. And I too find the mutator of no significant importance to me. To me, the system has seemed unchanged for ever. I know there was a lot of effort to move the code from NM1 platform to G2, that was definitely not trivial for them. Their secrecy keeps us guessing and as some call it "mystique", so I simply avoid the guessing.
| tim wrote: | I'm not angry or frustrated, nor am I "venting". I was just stating facts on what I consider an ultimately moral issue.
It's just very bad style of customer care. And I don't buy products from manufacturers who exhibit a bad style of customer care. This is not "punishment" (as Wout insinuates), but simply my choice in a free market. YMMV. |
I hear your Tim. Maybe I perceived your comments differently, perhaps since this topic has come up for you before, and I could have stated this better.
I do understand you see it as a moral issue, and I respect that.
Big respect to you, Tim. You are a master patcher. I love the detail and creativity in your patches, and I certainly see why you see and hear more of the bugs than me for example, thank you!
I agree with the everyone, that in the end the choice of gear you buy is yours alone, as it is to sell...
Take care,
/Dasz
Last edited by dasz on Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:40 am Post subject:
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| tim wrote: | | elektro80 wrote: |
So.. enough about Clavia.. how much better are the others? |
I know. But that's my whole point. I always thought Clavia was better than the others.
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For what it´s worth, Clavia might possible be better than the others.. but the messed up customer support and schizo marketing made sure that noone will ever know. 
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dasz
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:42 am Post subject:
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there are no perfect companies ... just like there are no perfect people ... keeps it interesting and competitive ...
/Dasz |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:50 am Post subject:
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Honestly, feeling that you have been ripped off by a dysfunctional company is hardly amusing nor interesting. And I still agree with Tim that there are moral issues here.
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Wout Blommers
Joined: Sep 07, 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:22 am Post subject:
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| tim wrote: | | ... I was just stating facts on what I consider an ultimately moral issue. ... |
 Facts on morality? To be objective about a subjective matter... 
But about | Quote: | | ...This is not "punishment" (as Wout insinuates), but simply my choice in a free market. YMMV. ... |
is related to | Quote: | ... Thanks to me, the whole department of the music university I teach in is equipped with Nords. And I was also planning to get a NordStage EX soon.
I won't. ... |
What has a Nord Stage EX to do with the Nord Modular 2? If you want a Nord Stage, buy one. I think it is the right thing to your needs, even when you only love the color red 
BTW What does YMMV mean?
Wout |
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Falk
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:26 am Post subject:
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| YMMV = Your Milage May Vary |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:27 am Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | Honestly, feeling that you have been ripped off by a dysfunctional company is hardly amusing nor interesting. |
And Clavia is by no means the worst offender in the class. Not at all.
| elektro80 wrote: | | And I still agree with Tim that there are moral issues here. |
And that is why it is very crucial to get customer support and the marketing right. As for Clavia and the G2 EOL, I don´t think it is problematic to stop production of a product that really didn´t sell too well and the lifespan of the product should probably not be much longer than this anyway. The G2 is the G2 and it deserves to have along life yet on the secondhand market. It is a modern classic already. We could hoped for Clavia to handle certain tasks far better, but that didn´t happen. They did have the opportunity to improve the brand by handling a very geeky and important customer segment in a far better way than they did. Shit happens.
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:33 am Post subject:
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| Wout Blommers wrote: | | What has a Nord Stage EX to do with the Nord Modular 2? |
A real lot, actually. I think the Stage is absolutely great, but that is not what we are talking about here. Clavia managed to mess up the market communication in a deep and profound way. They have hurt their own brand.
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Tim Kleinert
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:39 am Post subject:
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Let me tell a story about the Jomox Sunsyn. I bought one way back. It was/is a fantastic sounding analog synth (in the league of the great vintage polysynths) -but also a total nightmare. The thing was buggy beyond repair, ultimately due to the OS having to run on an undersized PIC chip. A hardware issue -nothing could be done. But at least the designer was open about his mistake, communicated with customers over a forum and tried his best to rectify things as good as he could. And now, he has finally rekindled the project, and is designing a hardware upgrade that will hopefully make the Sunsyn what it should always have been. This upgrade is unfortunately not for free -but at least he cares about the instrument and its users.
That's what bothers me here -an obvious lack of care.
So, I don't feel ripped off. I feel not being cared for, as a customer, as a user. That's why I probably will cease being one.
| Wout wrote: | | Facts on morality? To be objective about a subjective matter... |
If morality is only a purely subjective issue, then the Nazis were very moral people.  |
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blue hell
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject:
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| tim wrote: | That's what bothers me here -an obvious lack of care.
So, I don't feel ripped off. I feel not being cared for, as a customer, as a user. |
You're giving two messages here ... I won't argue your feeling as it makes no sense for me to do that, it's your feeling (but I'm sorry to read you do feel that way).
I will argue your statement "an obvious lack of care" though ... as you don't know about that ... neither do I of course ... but there might be very good business related reasons for Clavia to do what they did, and they just might be fully aware that what they did will not make them popular ... it's not always easy to run a business ...
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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Wout Blommers
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:46 pm Post subject:
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| tim wrote: | | ... If morality is only a purely subjective issue, then the Nazis were very moral people. |
And that's exactly what they did! Throwing in 'facts' to underline their morality... It's what they call 'Propaganda'...
Anyway, let's keep those idea's out of our discussion about right and wrong in Clavia's decision abandoning the G2.
Oh, BTW, morality and Free Market in one go gives me also goose bumps. 
Wout |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject:
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Fozzie
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:00 pm Post subject:
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| Wout Blommers wrote: | Oh, BTW, morality and Free Market in one go gives me also goose bumps.
Wout |
Why? People running businesses are free to have moral standards.
Anyway, I think Tim has expressed very clearly why he won't buy red stuff anymore, as (for him) there's more to buying a certain product than just the product itsself. You and I are free to decide differently, no need to argue.
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Wout Blommers
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject:
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You're right, Stein.
Surely I understand Tim moral issue when he decides not to buy any Clavia instruments anymore, but has Clavia have to have the same morality? I doubt any immorality at their side...
Wout |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject:
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| Wout Blommers wrote: | You're right, Stein.
Surely I understand Tim moral issue when he decides not to buy any Clavia instruments anymore, but has Clavia have to have the same morality? I doubt any immorality at their side...
Wout |
Good point, but... there are certain rules re how you handle customer care, customer support, your marketing and all that. These are almost universal. And Clavia has hardly been in the business of wholesale genocide recently as far as I know. Main point is that a business like Clavia , which has managed to become a brand ( probably in a state of stupor.. accidents do happen.. ) should or rather must try to manage these issues. They messed up. Small companies usually do. They might it get it right the next time.
Mind you, it is quite possible to be brilliant and still hate your customers. But if you have sorted out the methodology of handling customers then noone will ever notice that you really loathe the filty little buggers.
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dorremifasol
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:05 pm Post subject:
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We know since long time ago (more than a year) that the G2 was not selling well, and also that Clavia wouldn't spend much more time on it. Unfortunately the market is not going in that direction, most people seem to prefer premade presets and loops instead of their own sounds.
Nevertheless, Clavia promised a driver for Vista and they have made it true, which will give our synthesizer many more years of up to date status. The new shared driver will probably give even a much longer compatibility. I think they do care a bit...
To me, at this point my G2 is as good as the first day I bought it, it serves exactly the same purpose, and there is no other synthesizer that provides the same or more features. If it does not provide something I want then I will complement it with another machine or software, but "as is" it's irreplaceable.
I wonder if the Arturia Origin is selling well and if they will release the promised updates. It still has lots of announced features missing and without release date. You pay 2500€ for an incomplete machine and simply wait forever... Now that's a bad example!
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iPassenger
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject:
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| dorremifasol wrote: |
Nevertheless, Clavia promised a driver for Vista and they have made it true, which will give our synthesizer many more years of up to date status. The new shared driver will probably give even a much longer compatibility. I think they do care a bit... |
I think so too.
Anyways, we have seen much worse from other companies, and the NM and G2 product lines are way too good to be deemed outdated and useless. We still have the user communities and they won´t go away soon either.
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Wout Blommers
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:26 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | ... We still have the user communities and they won´t go away soon either. |
Ehh... Please, be careful making statements like that... We abandoned the Nord Modular e-mail list, didn't we? Only Sven protested and Kofi left, in practise, not by heart.
Ah, well, being still on topic here, we did the same thing!
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ark
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:26 pm Post subject:
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| Falk wrote: | | YMMV = Your Milage May Vary |
And here I thought Sweden was on the metric system... |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject:
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| Wout Blommers wrote: | | elektro80 wrote: | | ... We still have the user communities and they won´t go away soon either. |
Ehh... Please, be careful making statements like that... We abandoned the Nord Modular e-mail list, didn't we? Only Sven protested and Kofi left, in practise, not by heart.
Ah, well, being still on topic here, we did the same thing!
Wout |
Right, but shifting the focus from a listserver and to a forum format is hardly abandoning anything, now is it? It rather eases sharing, doesn´t it? The NM-1 community might seems dead compared to the old days, but then there is a real lot of NM-1 stuff to be found here. Or are we planning to delete everything NM-1? I don´t think so.
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Wout Blommers
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:37 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | ... Or are we planning to delete everything NM-1? I don´t think so. |
Clavia isn't asking to return our G2 either 
Wout |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:39 pm Post subject:
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| ark wrote: | | Falk wrote: | | YMMV = Your Milage May Vary |
And here I thought Sweden was on the metric system... |
Well, they are..
And they also have this in their arsenal...
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