The death of sofware modulars

buzzr · Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject: The death of sofware modulars

It seems right now that there is no company that is going to upgrade their software based modular systems. The one company that does is Symbolic Sounds Kyma, but other then that there is nothing new for software based modular systems. Reaktor has been stuck in limbo, the Nord Modular is officially dead, you can use programs like Pd, Max/Msp, Chuck, Supercollider, but you have to spend years with those to make a bleep....

Would be nice if some company stepped up to the plate and gave us something new to chew on...

Compared to hardware modulars, software has gone to the dogs. Look how many new modules have come out in the last year, staggering to say the least.

Just saying this as Clavia should step back up to the plate again. But they won't...

Wout Blommers

Eag · Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:31 pm Post subject:

Yeah, I've been feeling this way a lot lately, too.

I mostly lurk around here, but as I've said before, I'll never be able to go back to a non-modular rig for live performance. I plan to keep using my G2X until it dies, and I'm not sure I won't try to get another one then.

Personally, I've started trying to learn about audio synthesis at a pretty low level - I hope that eventually, when the G2 does die, if nothing else, I'll be able to put together a Linux box w/ the realtime kernel patches, a high-end audio interface, and ChucK/CSound/SuperCollider (or similar tools) to design synth (and other audio) patches. As a professional programmer, I don't find ChucK to be tons harder to use than the G2 (though I definitely prefer the G2's approach for most things - its front panel is a thing of beauty, and morph groups are spectacularly useful).

The nice thing about a Linux/audio language combination is that it'd be open. Whatever synthesis platform I wind up moving to, I think that'll be a requirement for me, even if it means working with clumsy interfaces. The proprietary upgrade train isn't something I want to ride - seems to me that a rackmounted Linux box with really good audio/MIDI/OSC interfaces may be the basis for my next synth rig.

Tim occasionally brings up what he sees as a major problem in electronic music, which is that it takes decades or centuries to perfect/understand an instrument, and for it to find its proper artistic role, but modern electronic instruments have lifecycles measured in years.

I think he's absolutely right about this being a massive problem, and it's one of the drivers behind my "openness" stance above. I know Symbolic Sound is very open, but I think I want the whole stack to be open source, honestly. With a fully OSS stack, I could be pretty confident that my sounds/interfaces/etc would never be utterly lost to the mists of time and the unavailability of my original tools. If you have open source tools for the whole stack, it would be possible to archive everything needed to use your patches alongside your patch archive.

Anyway, rant on openness aside, I've been thinking a lot about the replacement I'd *like* to have. The setup I mentioned above is probably doable now, but wouldn't give nearly as smooth an experience as the G2 does, and I think a smoother experience than the G2 is at least theoretically possible (I rather doubt I'll ever get it, though). I know Antimon and I have both mentioned the idea of writing a generic GUI for modular synthesis, and then using various audio engines (ChucK, SuperCollider, etc) to actually power the audio processing, and that's the crux of what I'm thinking of.

The vision of the system I want is still being refined, but it's getting clearer. When it's crisp enough, I may post a "Here's what I want - what would be the best way to get it?" message to the forum here, as a lot of the regulars here know orders of magnitude more than I do about synthesis and audio software.

(I've actually started considering going back to school to study synthesis, DSP, audio software, and musical interface design, just because the more I learn about it, the more I love it. It brings together several of my loves - user interface design, software development, and musical performance. I figure if I spent a few years focused on it, rather than squeezing it in around the edges like I do right now, I should get decent at it.

Probably wouldn't ever make me money, but it sure would be fun, and that's a better reason to do something than making money, if all else is equal.)

-Nate

Wout Blommers · Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:10 am Post subject:

Potard · Joined: Jun 16, 2009 Posts: 5 Location: France

Another approach would be the Origin digital modular synthesizer from Arturia, allowing to create patches from scratch, but also to start from preset patches. Full tweakability and plenty of controls.
The firmware still is a bit fresh though (currently v1.07), but updates are coming.

BobTheDog · Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:21 am Post subject:

I would love an Origin but Arturia support is just so bloody awful I just don't trust them.

I had a play with one and it sounded very nice but crashed (no audio out) twice in 30 minutes, required power cycle to get it back!

Its a shame really.

xav · Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:26 am Post subject:

xav · Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:29 am Post subject:

Keysandslots · Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:29 am Post subject:

I've had a G2X for some time now and have not done any patching on it, and yes, I am disappointed in myself. So disappointed that I have considered selling it a few times because I felt its potential was wasted with me.

Unfortunately, it sounds neat and does so many cool things, I just can't bring myself to part with it. I've sold a few things in the past (a Hohner Clavinet C comes to mind) that I have really regretted.

Not being the smartest musician on the planet, I'd want two things from something like the G2 (not necessarily from Nord, just from something G2-ish). First, I'd like the option of a control panel, but not like a physical modular synth. We're at a stage (or soon will be) where I should be able to get a nice big screen, hold it flat on my lap, and use my finger to run patchcords from module to module.

That would give me the best of both worlds, the tactile (sort of) experience of having a physical control panel and the ability to change modules and layouts as necessary. This would be handy for the Kyma too I would imagine.

The second thing I want is the ability to connect modules based on the sound or sound characteristic I'm after. For example, I'm in the mood for something a bit "buzzy", with a bit of a "honk" and a quick burst of brightness at the beginning, with the sound cutting off semi-quickly so I can play medium fast lines.

Drawing from my day gig as a data architect, it should be possible to construct an abstract list of characteristics related to each module, and then use these as keywords to drive an inference engine (a fairly simple version really). So, for an oscillator, I might define the basic waveforms, then define a sawtooth as "buzzy", define a filter with a bit of resonance as "honk" and various portions of envelope generators with appropriate characteristics.

So, I don't really want to know what a module is called or what it does on a physical level, I want to know what it does on a musical or sound creation level. Many of you already know this, based on many years of experimentation and experience. I would use something like this as a starting point and then tweak from there.

Randy

Keysandslots · Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:36 am Post subject:

Hey, that gives me another idea. How 'bout a modular based on the iPod Touch? For each module, I would need to buy a Touch (maybe a single Touch could emulate multiple simple modules), and then all I need is some kind of port, docking system or dedicated WIFI router to hook them all together virtually.

Three oscillators would be three Touches, maybe a pair of envelope generators could run on one Touch, a couple of filters on a couple more Touches and that sort of thing. That might be kinda cool and would certainly look impressive. How to emulate the dragging of patchcords from one to another would take some thought.

Randy

wouter · Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:56 am Post subject:

Take a look at Bazille:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/topic-258683-0-0.html&sid=b8136952909200557c664f2bdcafe721

buzzr · Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject:

Yes, i believe Dasc pointed us in this direction in a different thread. Besides basic analog synthesis, Bazille would also have to offer some more exotic modules and at it's basic level let us use a sample as an oscillator. Otherwise, it's just another virtual analog synth.

I'm interested in software that stretches what is already out there and available. If Basille will do more exotic kinds of synthesis and routing then I will be there. It looks right now to be a good copy of a basic Nord G2 setup, the filters sound much nicer though.

Eag · Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject:

buzzr · Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:27 pm Post subject:

?

I'm not sure what you are saying. It sounds like you have some interest in learning an instrument for a long time. That can easily be done with any instrument, including the G2 as it will have a lifespan as long as it runs on a power cable.

As far as OSC goes, unless you work with Max/Msp, Supercollider, Pd, then there is no reason to use OSC. MIDI works fine and is still king. I should know, i've developed OSC controllers for the market, good luck with that..

And that artilce by Kim Cascone dumping his Mac to buy a linux box seemed like a pretty funny article to me. Kim was more interested in getting around buying a mac computer, which is very expensive, but worth the money, I've had my powerbook for 7 years and it works perfectly....

Open source is not the answer, not yet anyways..unless you are very computer savvy..

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/08/04/linux-music-workflow-switching-from-mac-os-x-to-ubuntu-with-kim-cascone/

GovernorSilver · Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:00 am Post subject:

buzzr · Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:44 am Post subject:

yep, besides the monome, not much of a marketshare and most manufactures are not building synths with osc control...unless you count using another program alongside with it on your computer.

Antimon · Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject:

I'm so aching for a knob box like the BCR2000 transmitting high resolution data over OSC. It's not just the resolution, the way you format and deal with OSC messages makes more sense and is easier to work with (in ChucK anyway).

/Stefan

Akum420 · Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject:

buzzr · Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject:

Right now I'm using the G2 with Reaktor and having some very good results.

Maybe Reaktor will be updated.......HA!

buzzr · Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject:

Actually, Reaktor is being developed further, never mind.

They are looking for a software developer for the Core of Reaktor.

http://www.native-instruments.com/en/company/jobs/

Eag · Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:49 pm Post subject:

dasz · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:14 am Post subject:

what a cool thread.

I think as Wout put it in a different thread, Clavia may be making organs now, but they will always continue to own the source code for the G2 (and the NM). They're not erasing every back-up of the work and time they invested.

Kind of like me and my source disks with my Opcode Revolve 100m sequencer which may or may not see the light of day one day or not.

Meaning, you never know. Time change and so do people, and so does the market, and the economy.

--

my relationship with the g2 has evolved over the years. I used to only do things inside the G2, due to not having the physical room to spread my gear around, and other things and people that took too much room Wink

.

It is now, that the G2's have become the brain of my system, and controlling external gear (my x0xb0x and blofeld), and most recently my own voice (looping), which means my system is growing.

the g2 without OS updates is just like h/w modulars, sometimes you need to get another module (from another manufacturer) so you buy it. the system grows as I grow.

the trick is to get the right other module for you (for me, I am thinking of some kind of external filter box or a simple mono analog synth which I can patch my g2 through). adding a x0xb0x to my rig gave me an apppreciation and the presence of analog, and even though I have a blofeld, I still crave that real juicy squeltch that I could patch my G2 through. the x0xb0x filter is a 303 filter, which is great for some things, so ...

For me, I want a warm analog moog sounding filter, something really rich and warm which self-oscillates and still has a deep frequency range while doing so. it could be mono synth. with midi.

I'm not too keen on Dave smith gear, I have tried them, nor the sherman, but I like the moog little phatty, but I wish it had more knobs. I'm going to listen to an arp oddassy next month and I do like what I have heard on youtube, but it would need a midi/cv thing.

I'm not willing to spend more than $600USD. I am open to suggestions.

iPassenger · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:53 am Post subject:

Whilst I do see everyone's points about losing machines/patches that you create when the system finally dies (no longer supported or whatever) the knowledge you will have gained will be in the most part applicable/adaptable to any synth/seq system. So I don't think it would be all lost. Smile

The knowledge i gained from owning a Waldorf pulse meant I could patch the sound I wanted on a Juno, on a Moog and oberheim or anything else. Sure you need to learn the quirks but they are all essentially synthesizers, in much the same way that not all guitars are the same.

Lets all hope our machines keep working for as long as possible though eh. Smile

purusha · Joined: Mar 13, 2008 Posts: 131 Location: Ilkley

The way I've decided to tackle this one, in terms of recording at any rate, is to multi-track record my synths in cubase. That at least gives me the possibility of remixing in future, regardless of what happens to hardware and/or software.

It's then a case if hoping that the backups will hold up!

dorremifasol · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: