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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » OSX as a music workstation
Scala/X11
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
http://developer.apple.com/referencelibrary/GraphicsImaging/idxQuartz-date.html

The article says Quartz is like X, only better.


Well, it also implies that it is totally different. If you look into the whole section about OS X graphics stuff you will get the picture. X/X11 is old news and today simply running an X11 server solves the problem. Is there a problem? There have been many takes on X11 and many attempts to make something better. You probably already know YWS and others.


BTW: I downloaded Scala and started it up. It looks nice.

As for
Quote:
I'm always running into unexpected differences.

People were saying that about Irix and AIX as well.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don´t really see a problem here. X11 is X11.
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seraph
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well guys, I am very happy to let you know I solved the problem after sleeping over it.
do you remember what I had already told you? :
Quote:
Note that X11 must already be installed on your machine; you can install X11 with the installation media that came with your Mac OS X v10.3 system

I do not know why they refer to 10.3 on the 10.4 DVD but anyway on that DVD there is a package called "optional installs" among the applications there is X11 that installs an X11user without which the other X11SDK.pkg package does not do anything. kind of tricky but:
1) now I see an X11 icon inside Applications/Utilities
2) Scala opens up
3) Very Happy
4) cheers

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

See also X11 Basics for OS X

as I said:
Quote:
X11 is available as an optional install on the Mac OS X v10.3 Panther, and Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger install disks. Run the Installer, select the X11 option, and follow the instructions. You should install the X11 SDK as well, which is included on the Panther Developer CD.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:21 am    Post subject: Re: Scala/X11 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

Chances are you will be able to find the X11 installer that way. The X11SDk you already found is probably the X11 Software Development Kit ( SDK ) andthis is not what you need now.

I guess you are right Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:


Install the scale archive

Download http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/scales.zip.
Don't download it into the Desktop folder where Stuffit would unzip it automatically. Safari browser users, control-click on the link and choose "Save Linked File As...", then save to any folder other than Desktop (i.e. the Scala folder would be a good choice). Then open Terminal.app or xterm, navigate to that folder with the cd command, and type:
unzip -a scales.zip

You must unzip them with the -a (ASCII) option, otherwise they cannot be opened! Lines will terminate with <CR><LF> instead of <LF>, so to use Stuffit is a bad idea.
The files will go to a subdirectory "scl" of the current directory (again the Scala folder is the best choice).

I had never used Terminal before so it took me awhile to decipher what it meant but with a little help from internet tutorials I finally was able to write:
cd /applications/scala
and then:
unzip -a scales.zip
to "inflate" those damned scales Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You have not discovered the control click zip unzip thingie yet?
Apple calls it "archive".

Anyways, this is excellent! now you have Scala and X11 running fine!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
You have not discovered the control click zip unzip thingie yet?
Apple calls it "archive".

what are you talking about? Shocked

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

.zip files are very common you should be able to unzip them from your graphical interface.

Also; if you ever have to use the terminal again and are bothered by all the slashes and typing again; You can go;
"cd app"

Then hit TAB and it should autocomplete "applications" for you. and so on.

This is very convenient for other commands as well. For example if you have some file called "My_program version1353.2345434.234 beta8 not for distribution.zip" then it might be more convenient to just go "unzip My" and hit TAB; it should automcomplete that as well.

Bash, despite the agressive name, is your friend. Also; it's cooler then what Windows has; Mac people should like that.
:¬p

(ok windows can auto complete as well)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
You have not discovered the control click zip unzip thingie yet?
Apple calls it "archive".

what are you talking about? Shocked


Just you try control clicking on a file on your desktop. See the menu.. choose the "make archive" command.. Then watch as the file/folder is being zipped. You can also unzip stuff this way too.

See? Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
X/X11 is old news and today simply running an X11 server solves the problem. Is there a problem?


The problem is that all of the OSX Applications aren't X applications. So, I can't sit on another non-OSX system and run them with the display on a window on my screen. Having the X server means you can display X applications from either your local machine or any other machine on the network. Remote applications look like local ones. But if the apps aren't X apps, then your out of luck. That's why it is difficult if not impossible to administer an OSX maching from a Linux or Windows computer. It's exactly the same for XP.

This is why virtually every CAD/CAM application is an X application. Engineers can then use huge compute farms.

If the DAW and synth software were X based (I can dream, can't I), then you could sit at your display computer (who cares what OS) and run applications in windows but they would be running on you audio computer. You could have separate machines for office stuff and browsing, and your audio. If everyone used X, then you could have some apps running on your OSX machine, some on your XP, and some on Linux.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That would be ssh for the easy stuff and then VNC, ARD or even TB2 for the windowing stuff. All OS X systems have a built in VNC server, as well as full ARD support. I can control my macs from the Linux, win2k and XP boxes as well as the other way around.

Because workstations now basically are free compared with what an Irix system would cost you back in the early 90s, a lot of applications have been developed that are intended for local use on the desktop. Most big DAWs are intended to be used as local apps. Logic Pro however comes with an unlimited network client app, which means that you can offload your main DAW tasks to network computers. Same thing with network 3D rendering to stills and movie files. You must consider what the apps are for. However, there are decent options for remote control.

Trivia: I have been told Apple is working on an extension of the X11 app. The feature list is very interesting.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Trivia: I have been told Apple is working on an extension of the X11 app. The feature list is very interesting.


I rest my case. Wink

I hope they are really working on this and don't end up being Microsoftish. Microsoft's Java was improved (extended) over Suns release, just enough so Sun's JRE wouldn't work with MS applicaitons. There are so many examples of this MS preditory behavior that one could right a book.

X11 indeed needs to be upgraded. If Apple contributed to and participated in the development X12, that would be a boon to everyone. Still, X11 is tremendously powerful, open source, pervasive and free.

I'm somewhat familiar with VNC as I used to work at Bell Labs where it was developed. I've never used it, but I'll try it out. TB2 is proprietary and doesn't interest me. We tried it out at work but it didn't look to exciting.

Another application that is strong in this arena is Citrix, but it's proprietary and costly. Graphon's Go-Global is another, also costly.

Desktop sharing isn't what I am interested in, it's application sharing. ARD is similar to but agreeably more powerful than XP's remote desktop which I use all the time. The XP tool is really nice because the audio is automatically routed though to my local computers' MOTU 828MKII.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

Just you try control clicking on a file on your desktop. See the menu.. choose the "make archive" command.. Then watch as the file/folder is being zipped. You can also unzip stuff this way too.

See? Very Happy

holy cow, it's true. never seen it Crying or Very sad I seldom zip anything (pants included Shocked )

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The one good thing about Zip is that it's so common. that's why many people still use it; you can be sure the receiver can open it. It's not a particularly good way of archiving so as long as you aren't sending files to other people running some unknown system then I think it's very wise never to zip.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK.

Four things:

1)A paradox: Finder smells of poo.
Bash [bæsj] means poo in Norwegian, but BASH isn't poo.

2)The Finder Archive command is not the same as the default gzip command, because command-line zipping doesn't necessarily take the resource fork of the file (you need to "ditto") to do this. The Archive command is an "enhancement" (read "return to the bad old days of OS 9") of gzip in the same way that MS Java is an "enhancement" of Sun's Java.

3)NSHosting was dropped in the implementation of Display PDF. Sad but true, this would have solved your issue mosc. "-NSXHost"

4)X11SDK is an example of the problem of filenames with TLAs!

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