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paul e.
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Posts: 1567
Location: toronto, canada
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 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:35 pm Post subject:
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are you hearing digital aliasing perhaps ?
in the second sample, the mild distortion i think was 'authentic'..Rhodes seemed to have that sound..so this may be intentional
in the first sample, i thought i might have heard aliasing...
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cappy2112
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 2490
Location: San Jose, California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:20 am Post subject:
Re: NM 1 resurrection |
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| DrJustice wrote: | I wish Clavia would reconsider and update the NM 1 software so that it runs smoothly on the latest Windows and OS X. I mean, it can't be many hours work, and it would make them look real good and gain even more customer satisfaction - it's a win-win situation  .
Oh, and for the totally OT bit: Tim that avatar makes me real uneasy... 
DJ
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There are many of us using the NM editor on XP, in compat mode, and it runs just fine. |
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cappy2112
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 2490
Location: San Jose, California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:23 am Post subject:
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| Fozzie wrote: | | elektro80 wrote: | | And Howard has a wonderful wife! She is really something! |
That figures; with such a gearlist, I'd marry him, too  |
Some people would say anything to get an account with admin rights, on this system :=) |
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cappy2112
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 2490
Location: San Jose, California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:26 am Post subject:
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| jksuperstar wrote: | | (sign...) If they'd only hire an international telecommuting Electrical/ASIC/FPGA designer, then I'd be a much happier man. |
Well, you would be verrrry busy implementing the hardware-dependant feature requests from the users in these forums.
Oh, and Claivia might have some work for you to do too ) |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18235
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:19 am Post subject:
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I carefully listened to these two demos. I even imported them into Audacity to look at the waveforms. The second one seems to sound worse to me. I also hear what I would call distortion in the middle high frequency ranges, especially when loud playing.
At first I thought it was overload of the input stage of your mixer. I assume you have ruled that out. Maybe the output stage on the keyboard is defective.
It's really hard to know what it sounds like in your studio becasue mp3 is not a great format. It has it's own distortion. But if you think these demos are accurately showing the distortion, then I'd say you aren't halucinating; I hear it too.
Is it possible that your dealer got a bad batch of these keyboards?
I wouldn't accept this if I were you. I mean, play the G2 patch 1:54 BriteTine. That's a much cleaner epiano sound.
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2114
Location: Morokulien
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:36 am Post subject:
Re: NM 1 resurrection |
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| cappy2112 wrote: | | There are many of us using the NM editor on XP, in compat mode, and it runs just fine. |
I've noted that it works for most people, but there are also reports of problems for many. I'm able to get the editor to run on XP in compatibility mode, sort of - however, it always loses the MIDI connection with the NM after a little while. IIRC this also happened on Win98. I've tried using M-audio Delta 1010 and M-audio Midisport 2x2 and various PC's. I've read somewhere that the MIDI data may need controlled pacing to avoid overruns, or something to that effect. IMO this is not something that users should be bothered with.
In practice my NM is totally unusable because of this. Suffice to say, I'm not byuing or another Clavia product until the situation changes.
BTW: for this reason I have an almost untouched NM1 keyboard for sale - sad really, since I know it would have been lot's of fun.
Anyway, an update shouldn't take much time and as mentioned it can't be anything but a win-win situation. I honestly can't understand Clavias decision to abandon the editor, or what the problem is (if any). If I had made it, I would just be updating it, making myself and the NM world happy bunnies...
DJ
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elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:43 am Post subject:
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DrJ, check my PM. I am in a good mood today.
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northstar
Joined: Jan 19, 2006
Posts: 35
Location: Vienna/Austria/EU
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject:
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Hi,
@paul e.:
Thanx for listening to the demos, Paul! I don't know exactely what aliasing sounds like.
But I doubt that the distortion I mean is intentional and a clon of original Rhodes or Wurlitzer sound 'cause it was there on the Hammond sounds of the Nord Stage too and it wasn't there at all on the cross-checked Hammond XK-3 sound.
@mosc:
Thanks so much for the time you spent in carefully listening to the demos, Howard! You just saved my day! You're the first who recognized it and now I'm faithful not to see white rabbits and I don't have to bother Scully and Mulder .
No, seriously, what a relief. I was beginning to mistrust my senses, at least the one who's in business with that audio stuff...
| Quote: | | I also hear what I would call distortion in the middle high frequency ranges, especially when loud playing. |
That's exactely what was bothering me!
| Quote: | | ...overload of the input stage of your mixer. I assume you have ruled that out. |
Certainly! I ruled that out.
| Quote: | | But if you think these demos are accurately showing the distortion,.. |
Exactely the one! I was very happy to accidentially stumble over these demos.
| Quote: | | Is it possible that your dealer got a bad batch of these keyboards? |
I don't guess so. I mean, three new Nord Stages, each one delivered to the dealer some three or four weeks later than the previous and all those with that same distortion. And those demo mp3s were made with a Nord Stage in Germany I don't know when. There's a term in statistics which I don't know in English. "over incidentially"??
I reckon it has something to do with the pre-amp (ord DAC?).
| Quote: | | I wouldn't accept this if I were you. |
I didn't! And the dealer took it back. (It helped that I returned it within 5 days!)
But it's frustrating 'cause the Nord Stage was otherwise everything I was looking for. All the dedicated buttons and knobs, so easy to use, extremely flexible and so many possibilities, exactely those EP, ac. piano and organ sounds I needed and all that in a compact case (As good as it gets with 88 keys.) and only 18kg/36lbs weight! And a perfect masterkeyboard for my G2 engine!
I didn't hesitate to pay 3.000 Euro for it, a, no, the high end price tag for stage pianos. In comparable situations I would be mad on the manufacturer. Being so happy with the G2 which I presume an absolutely exceptional product, I can't. But I would like to have a word with Clavia. That's something which easily can destroy their well earned excellent reputation.
northstar |
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cappy2112
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 2490
Location: San Jose, California
Audio files: 2
G2 patch files: 1
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject:
Re: NM 1 resurrection |
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| DrJustice wrote: | | cappy2112 wrote: | | There are many of us using the NM editor on XP, in compat mode, and it runs just fine. |
anything but a win-win situation. I honestly can't understand Clavias decision
DJ
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Any chance you've got a loose usb connector on the midi interfaces (at least on the midisport)?
Thats what I'm using, but my system is probably a lot slower than the majority of NM/G2 users, s o I might not see the data overrun problem.
Have you tried the open source editor, to see if it changes the problem signature at all? |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2114
Location: Morokulien
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject:
Re: NM 1 resurrection |
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Hey cappy, thanks for the concern!
| cappy2112 wrote: | | Any chance you've got a loose usb connector on the midi interfaces (at least on the midisport)? |
I don't think so - same result with the Delta 1010 and the midisport with different MIDI cables and PCs. But it's the right place to start, thinking of the age old words of wisdom "always suspect the cable"... Must be a quirk in the earth magnetism at my location or something 
However, I may have a solution coming up. I'll post a report as soon as I know how it goes.
DJ
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2114
Location: Morokulien
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject:
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That's strange cappy. Sounds like the problem is not with the G2 or the editor though.
I forgot to answer your last Q: no I haven't tried the open source editor yet. My impression was that it isn't quite ready (?) so I've held it off for now. Also, I'd really like the original to work first.
DJ
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004
Posts: 2503
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject:
Re: NM 1 resurrection |
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When I close my laptop overnight, then re-open it with the G2 USB connected, it can't see the G2 any more. I have to unplug the G2 from the USB hub (or reboot), before the G2 can be seen.
I dont know why, but this is how I get around the problem. |
I have a similar issue on a PC with a USB WiFi device. It won't re-attach after waking up from sleep-mode. One possible solution is to deattach it before you put your laptop to sleep, then it might re-detect on wake up. My solution is currently to force the PC to stay awake (power settings = always on). |
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7om
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 29
Location: SF Bay Area, Calif.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject:
Re: NM 1 resurrection |
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| DrJustice wrote: | Anyway, an update shouldn't take much time and as mentioned it can't be anything but a win-win situation.
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I think your expectations are highly unrealistic. First of all, it would likely take considerably more time than you imagine to update the software. It's not just the coding, but the testing and bug fixing process, project planning, and a slew of tiny things that no one ever thinks about unless they have done a lot of project management at a software or hardware company.
Second, if it were a "win-win" situation, they would probably be doing it. In reality, there is no financial gain, only losses for any company that dedicates resources to a product that no longer generates revenue. By all means, don't buy Clavia products if you feel that strongly, but I don't think Clavia is unique here. This will be an issue for any hardware that has companion software. Clavia is simply making hard decisions about their survival as a company. Personally, I want them to make the smart business decisions that ensure their survival. |
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cappy2112
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 2490
Location: San Jose, California
Audio files: 2
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject:
Re: NM 1 resurrection |
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| 7om wrote: | | DrJustice wrote: | Anyway, an update shouldn't take much time and as mentioned it can't be anything but a win-win situation.
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>>In reality, there is no financial gain, only losses for any company that >>dedicates resources to a product that no longer generates revenue. By all >>means, don't buy Clavia products if you feel that strongly, but I don't think |
Do you really think many former Nord Modular users would have bought the G2, if Clavia only released version 1.0 of the Editor?
Probably not. So by releasing updates, whether bug fixes or new features, they lock in a fair amount of customers on future products.
It's not instant gain, but a projected gain over time. |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2114
Location: Morokulien
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject:
Re: NM 1 resurrection |
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| 7om wrote: | | I think your expectations are highly unrealistic. |
Regrettably I do not expect it to happen - I only wish for it. And I do not accept the notion that it is has to be a huge project to maintain the NM 1 editor. I do have some idea of what it takes after half a lifetime as a programmer. For this kind of product one really has to project for maintaining the accompanying software. Clavia actually is unique in this respect thinking of the type of product than the Nord Modulars are. It's not like they make cheap throwaway USB webcams, graphic card of the month or anything like that, these are musical instruments that cost a good chunk IYSWIM.
DJ
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7om
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 29
Location: SF Bay Area, Calif.
G2 patch files: 1
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject:
Re: NM 1 resurrection |
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| cappy2112 wrote: | Do you really think many former Nord Modular users would have bought the G2, if Clavia only released version 1.0 of the Editor?
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I'm assuming, having not been an owner of the original NM, that most, if not all NM updates occured while the product was still being sold by Clavia. I was only suggesting that once a company stops selling a product, updates then become a financial liability, forcing the company to decide when, not if, they will discontinue support. My only expectation with the G2 is that the software will work with the latest Mac/Win OS until the G2 is discontinued. Personally, I think anything more is asking a lot of a small company with limited resources. |
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7om
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 29
Location: SF Bay Area, Calif.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject:
Re: NM 1 resurrection |
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| DrJustice wrote: | | I do not accept the notion that it is has to be a huge project to maintain the NM 1 editor. I do have some idea of what it takes after half a lifetime as a programmer. For this kind of product one really has to project for maintaining the accompanying software. Clavia actually is unique in this respect thinking of the type of product than the Nord Modulars are. It's not like they make cheap throwaway USB webcams, graphic card of the month or anything like that, these are musical instruments that cost a good chunk IYSWIM. |
I never suggested that it was a "huge project," but it does require resource allocation. You may have some idea of the coding effort, but how often have you been involved in financial modeling for mulitple product lines to ensure that a company can stay afloat? There are always more expenses associated with running a company than one expects. I don't think Clavia is evil, I just suspect that they have some real financial constraints. |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2114
Location: Morokulien
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject:
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7om, I never claimed that Clavia is evil either. On the contrary I think they're a good company. This thread started with news about their 50 million swedish crowns turnover, and an ad for more development staff. Apparently they have 5 programmers already and not that many products. Not a very small company then, and the resources seem to be there. I really would think that maintaing the editors would not be that much of a strain on them, and good strategy too. But what do I know. Well, I've duly made my point now so I'll shut up about it.
DJ
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Last edited by DrJustice on Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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7om
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject:
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| Apologies. Never meant to suggest you said they were evil. Just a bit of hyperbole. |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
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Location: Morokulien
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject:
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No problem 7om.
One last point: failing to support these products, they could open source the editors when they 'phase them out', or at the very least publish the protocols concerned. OK enough about that.
DJ
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mother misty
Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 681
Location: Ghent / Belgium
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:44 am Post subject:
Re: NM 1 resurrection |
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| cappy2112 wrote: | | When I close my laptop overnight, then re-open it with the G2 USB connected, it can't see the G2 any more. I have to unplug the G2 from the USB hub (or reboot), before the G2 can be seen. |
I have a similar problem.
Whenever I turn of my G2, and back on,
I'll have to restart windows before I get a connection  |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18235
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:08 am Post subject:
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Oppps. 
Sorry folks. I thought the discussion of the USB going away was so important that I split the two posts out and started another topic. http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-10261.html
I don't do this enough. I figured the software would let me leave the posts in the original topic and just copy them to a new topic. WRONG.
Very sorry.
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Fozzie
Joined: Jun 04, 2004
Posts: 875
Location: Near Wageningen, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject:
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@Northstar: it's a bit late, but I finally checked your samples on a decent pair of headphones.
I think it's a very good Rhodes! It might depend on how you like your Rhodes to sound (by adjusting hardware things like tine hight, distance to pickup, the newness of the hammer tips, the year of manufacturing (not much to adjust there) etc etc etc) whether you like these demo's. IMHO, a Rhodes needs to sound a bit dark and dirty; my real rhodes is probably worse than these samples regarding 'cleanness'. My guess is that the sounds demonstrate 'real life' Rhodes tones, with lots of clashing partials that make it an interesting kind of complex distorted sound (very clear for instance around 0:50 in the first demo).
The second demo I think features some kind of amp or preamp distortion, or just some extra-dirty Rhodes samples.
Maybe it's my headphones (slightly bassy sound) or ears, but I really like the demo's and would not consider the sound to be wrong.... but then again, I would never want a Rhodes to sound pristine.... I'd take some kind of DX7-like slick epiano to be really pure & cristally..... for what it's worth anyway. |
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northstar
Joined: Jan 19, 2006
Posts: 35
Location: Vienna/Austria/EU
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject:
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@Fozzie:
Thanx so much, Fozzie! 
Pre-amp distortion was my first suspect.
What's up to the original Rhodes sound: I've never played an original Rhodes. I ve'heard the Rhodes sound on Scarbee's Vintage Keyboards PlugIn, was addicted to that clipping, the bell-like sound on the higher octaves and to hear the tines on release. And since then I get stuck on every piece of music with a Rhodes in. So I'm not really able to compare the Nord Stage Rhodes sound with the original (Wurly as well). I would like to hear an original "dirty" Rhodes with complex distortion of clashing partials to have a reference.
But two things made me suspicious. The fact that the kind of distortion which I recognized on the Nord Stage was on the Rhodes sound as well as on the Hammond or Farfisa physical modeling emulation. And the fact that it wasn't there on the Kawai MP-8 sounds. Today I checked out a Gem ProMega 3. Same "distortion" as on the Nord Stage. And on ALL sounds. On the Grand Piano as well! As the ProMega 3 is equipped with an 8 band eq, I tried to sort out the frequency band of that distortion. There I had to correct my impression that it's in the higher frequency band. In fact it's between 500 Hz and 1000 Hz.
Not to mislead any users I have to point out now that yesterday I got aware that I was wrong with the sound source of those demos. I stepped over them on my google search for the Clavia Nord Stage and failed in re-checking them via the main level homepage. Yesterday a German user pointed out that those demo-files are not of Clavia Nord Stage origin.
Sorry for that. Anyhow, the "distortion" on that demos is 100 % the same as on the headphone and main-outs of my Clavia Nord Stage, so it wasn't misleading with regard to the problem I was speaking about.
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paul e.
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Posts: 1567
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:57 pm Post subject:
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you must be hearing aliasing...but that would mean you have 'super ears' and probably won;t enjoy any digital sound very much
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