Mixing down to 1/4 inch tape.

KarmanHardon · Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject:

Just read the posts...Processing data/googling/ don't want to ask dumb questions....

Got my eye on an Otari 1/4 that a studio owns but does not use anymore. Not sure what it is exactly yet... just that it's a 1/4 machine. From looking at pics on the net I think it's an MTR 15... like this, if my photographic memory is good:
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It would just be perfect I assume... for a bunch of new reasons I want one for now because...

I brought my Akai at my friend's studio. We mixed down a song of his. It was a ska/punk tune with very dynamically and texturally contrasting sections... everything was very well recorded (he's not your typical punker... his mixes are astounding). So we captured the mix simultaneously in logic and on the tape (he has lots of midi instruments, we mixed on a console). We let the meters on the akai go as far as +4.5 on the occasional higher peaks. We didn't aim at a noticeable, obvious compression/saturation effect... we just wanted to compare the waveforms afterwards and see just what tape does to the peaks. Really, we were not expecting much from this hi-fi looking Machine, no matter what people say about it on the net, good or bad...

Shocked

Oh-la-la!!! marc and I had only used cassette tape before moving to computers for recording. We were in for a very nice surprise.

Some very low bass lacks a bit (but I'm thinking we could try again mixing differently to cover that) but aside from that... my god!... Where to start?!?
Not only were we floored by the overall fidelity of the recording, but something felt very different, for the better, of course.

It sounds rounder for damn real!!... it's sooooo easier on the ears. With some tiny final eq'ing in the computer and a little bit more limiting, we got something very punchy yet nice on the ears. There was no way we could emulate what the tape did with the digital capture and plugs we've grown to know very well. It was never as comfortable to listen to. And we tried!!! We a/b'd for hours.

We used a reel of that for this test :
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Can we expect much better from better tape?

It was a test... but Marc will actually send this version to the few radio stations he has to send the song to. It sounds plain better.

Next we want to try things like recording only certain elements of the mix... say the kick and the bass on a tekky thing... and driving the tape like hell this time.

We're converted already anyway...

Oh... there was some talk about Noise reduction processes that creates funky stuff... well an old guy I got tape from really liked me and threw this in:
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It's going to be fun! I know it.

More than anything... all this really fuels me to make music... will have a studio back in about 15 days.

I'll have a bunch of questions soon... when I get to know what the Otari is exactly.

Later!

Kassen · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:27 am Post subject:

Good stuff!

More tricks; Originally "enhancers" were meant to compensate for the unwanted effects of tape, try one set to slightly exagerated value before the tape-input if you need things like energetic highhats.

Listen to some 30's to 50's jazz, you don't have to like it, just try to notice how they mixed for tape. Try to avoid digital remastered tracks and albums, 60's re-releases are to vinyl fine. If unsure what to get or use you realy ca't go wrong with Duke Elington or Louis Amstrong. I'm not a 100% sure the very old stuff was recorded to tape but whatever they used behaved similarly in many regards.

What you can do in a pinch and with some experimentation; if a certain element or instrument lacks the emphasis it needs; mix it slightly too loud. In the right context tape can "magically" turn volume into "emphasis". Don't overdo this and use carefull EQ, it should definately sound "daring" before the tape but not "tastless".

About that bass; it's true, tape will repress bass slightly but that's not all bad. If tape represses your bass heavily that's also a signal that likely your bass won't translate well on many speakers. But yeah, no shame in some final EQ.

v-un-v · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:08 am Post subject:

v-un-v · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:14 am Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:45 am Post subject:

You mean D&R?

The old D&R stuff is so great! Not just the compressors but also the EQ's It's build to last too but some of those old designs use odd sorts of pots so if one of those breaks you're fuxored...

v-un-v · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject:

v-un-v · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject:

EdisonRex · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject:

Ugh.. and you haven´t heard the real mixes yet Shocked

elektro80 · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject:

A quick mix done some years ago. Not a good MP3 transfer. I´ll get back to it. Some noises in there from a gate/sidechaining roundtrip which didn´t mute as it was supposed to. Drum stuff with a kick recorded offa an old Acoustic PA which went into complete OD/selfcombustion .. yeah I love kneeling PAs. Lotsa tape compression and similar shit. Some bass stuff from a Taurus, some from a CAT2 and some from a Guild electric bass. Lotsa stepfiltering munched into some old Eela compressors and some other stuff. Some real strings, some sampled strings and some synthetic. ..right. and some novatron and some M-Tron. Some PPG 2.3 + Waveterm + Waldorf PPG 2. + some roland analogues, an Odyssey. Some restored layers from a Porta-B + the NI B3 run through 2 roland jazz chorus amps and some other stuff.
I know.. prog.. Rolling Eyes

KarmanHardon · Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:48 am Post subject:

That was very pleasant listening.

Badass song title....

Dude... I'm always looking for something killer to say when i fire up my vocoder... now that could be something...

We
Can build you
Improve you
Remake you.

Render
You

Obsolete!!
You are obsolete!!
Human
Obsolete!!

hehehe... anyway...

Thanks for the tricks!!! Keep 'em coming!

Oh... and they won't sell me the Otari!!! Mad

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:24 am Post subject:

No Otari?

Re song title.. it´s actually the name of a book by Philip K. Dick.
http://www.philipkdick.com/works_novels_wecanbuild.html

KarmanHardon · Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:26 am Post subject:

Still fighting to buy the otari off of them... it is the one I showed you.

Anyway, I just scored this one:

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Quad!!! This is going to be a total blast.
I should get it this week. Whenever the guy drops by Montreal.

elektro80 · Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:42 am Post subject:

Quad!

OK, not to be negative... but this model is a consumer product. It is OK, but not completely up to pro standards. That being said, it looks great and you are going to also enjoy "artifacts" from the electronics. This one is highly useful and if you like it you will probably buy more R2R decks.

Very Happy

Anyways... party!

KarmanHardon · Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject:

Yeah... I don't expect it to sound as good as my gx, which has better heads. Still going to be fun bringing it to my roommate's rehearsal studio and record a session with four mics (or somehow else...) and feed it back in their four channel PA (they have four identical jbl monitors)!! Awwww yes that's going to be cool..

I finally got down to reopen a song of mine to redo the mix and record it on the tape. I went for my bass-heaviest track to see how it could handle it. The bass drum fundamental is 32hz. I routed the bass sounds in different channels of my mackie and compressed them with the dbx 119. Oh... I slammed an eq after the dbx to compensate for the tape loss. Prior to doing all that I checked with white noise and the Voxengo Span what the tape does to the frequecies and pulled a ''comensation eq curve'', if i can call it that. So yeah... I put the eq after the compressor. The mid and high frequency sounds went into a stereo channel and I cranked the highs there.

hm...Question: Is it better to eq after the tape to ''compensate'' or before?

I really like the result... I did still have to restore the very low bass a bit with a multi band compressor, in the computer.

So the bass lacks, highs are ok, I find... but what I am very pleased by is how everything else sounds... it all becomes one sound. That's the best way I can describe it.

Well... here it is... ''PickledGenitalia''.

I recorded it on my test reel... which has been recorded on several times...

I have crap m-audio bx8's that color the whole range... so if you listen to it could you tell me what your monitors said? Very Happy

(I know it distorts around 1:29... I have to look into what caused this... I thought my gains were in the green where they had to...)

And... well... I hope you like this housy effort. More into disco these days. Yup yup. Itlao style, even.

Might I add... with the fear of digital peaks gone, mixing is actually a fun thing!

PickledGenitaliaAnlgMx_2.mp3

Description:

PickledGenitalia.

Download (listen)

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PickledGenitaliaAnlgMx_2.mp3

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v-un-v · Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject:

KarmanHardon · Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:44 am Post subject:

Glad you like!

Someone close to my home has this Otari MX55T for sale ...300$...
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Interesting.

elektro80 · Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:47 am Post subject:

That one is good! Very Happy

v-un-v · Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:59 am Post subject:

Yes you can't go wrong with Otari!

Remember also, the higher the tape speed, the better the top end, but the low end suffers in return. I think that's why 15ips is a good compromise- but I do like 7-1/2 ips too, and as I said before the Fostex R8 has a very good sound imo.

It's the joy of watching things go round!! Cool

KarmanHardon · Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:49 am Post subject:

Yeah... the R8... I think it could work well for me. There is one barely used I could buy right now (if I had the extra cash). But I think my best bet is to grab a good 2-track machine.

There is also a Revox A77 for a ridiculous price (100$!!), but the recording head needs to be replaced. A guy I often see at work told me today Otaris tend to fail more than other brands and that I should get that Revox if I can find a replacement head even if it takes a while. I had no I idea that guy knew so much about stuff. He was an engineer in France. Now he gives massages. lol

I read the A77's frequency response range goes down to 20hz. I like the idea of that!!

Must buy a pro machine soon. This is bringing much fun in the production\mixing side of things... usually a party stopper for me.

v-un-v · Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject:

KarmanHardon · Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject:

It seems I'll be able to grab the Otari. Marc is helping me out with the$. It's good that he's also converted to capturing mixes on tape... he understands. Thing is I'm also buying a Soundcraft console. My mackie's routing is too limited. To make a long story short I don't feel like mixing another tune in the computer!!! Nope... I am not doing it.

Gonna be broke for a while though... eeeshh... ohh boy.

But this is all happening at the right time. I should have an album out by next fall/winter of tracks I've made in past three years. They really have different characters because throughout that time I got better at mixing. This is giving me the drive to reopen the songs, redo the mixes and give them a more even sound. And maybe rework the arrangements...

Er... you guys know if 7 inch reels fit on that Otari? That'd be cool. I'll be too skint to buy anything else for a while.

But that's alright Very Happy