electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » Discussion » Composition
Twelve-tone technique and the lack of harmonies
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: elektro80
Page 2 of 3 [56 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
danielrast



Joined: Sep 11, 2009
Posts: 6
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also nice if it used right... Just Intonation.


http://www.michaelharrison.com/web/pure_intonation.htm

But shortly back to the 12tonetopic. Currently my idea is to create a 12tonerow in the common way, and use another set of all 12 notes from the chromatic scale for (free) harmonisation. Surely with a few rules, no tone does appear again until the tonerow has reached the end. For example: Four 7th chords in one tonerow are possible, or maybe 6 triads, or one 9th chord and four triads, etc. pp..

I made a few attempts, and it seems to work. My main problem is at the moment to choose/create the right 12tonerow for my purposes. I don't like if it sounds to tonal, so i have currently some difficulties to divide the scale into groups that make sense...

daniel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rbedgar



Joined: Dec 20, 2005
Posts: 110
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:03 am    Post subject: 12 tones
Subject description: and Carnatic music
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not an expert, but the Carnatic (south Indian) music I've been playing for the past few years seems to have a standard 12-tone framework, with microtones used for what we in the west would consider flourishes or ornamentation. But unlike much "ornamentation", the microtonal notes are often the heart of a piece, and never taken lightly. My sense is that there are almost two separate systems that are double-exposed to create a composition.

Note: I don't mean that the music is 12-tone serial in composition, I just mean that it has a basis in a 12-half step division of an octave.

_________________
Robert Edgar
rbedgar@stanford.edu
www.robertedgar.com

The present day composer refuses to sleep...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
danielrast



Joined: Sep 11, 2009
Posts: 6
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Milton Babbitt is getting to one of my favourite composers...


Milton Babbitt: "All Set" for Jazz Ensemble (1957)


Milton Babbitt: "Composition for Guitar" (1984)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
T. Azimuth Schwitters



Joined: Dec 19, 2009
Posts: 8
Location: Madison, WI

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For serial music that has a quasi-tonal sound, I like Dalapicolla.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18210
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 218
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

T. Azimuth Schwitters welcome to electro-music.com
_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
T. Azimuth Schwitters



Joined: Dec 19, 2009
Posts: 8
Location: Madison, WI

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, thanks for the warm welcome.
_________________
"If it is art, it is not for all. If it is for all, it is not art." -- Arnold Schoenberg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Acoustic Interloper



Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2071
Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:51 am    Post subject:
Subject description: polyharmonies
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Polyharmonies are not typically 12 tone, but a polyharmonic piece could use all 12 tones in a chromatic scale during the course of its lifetime.

One approach I like is giving a higher statistical distribution to intervals that I perceive as consonant, and a lower (but often non-zero) distribution to dissonant intervals. This can take the form of multiple voices playing the piece in several overlapping-but-non-identical scales. The harmonies fly apart on the un-shared scale portions and come back together on the shared ones.

Is one allowed to apply statistical methods to standard 12-tone composition?

_________________
When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 2922
Location: Up in that tree over there.
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:10 am    Post subject:
Subject description: polyharmonies
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Acoustic Interloper wrote:
Is one allowed to apply statistical methods to standard 12-tone composition?


Sure! Unless you equate 12-tone composition with 12-tone-row composition.

_________________
The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Acoustic Interloper



Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2071
Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:20 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: polyharmonies
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Acoustic Interloper wrote:
Is one allowed to apply statistical methods to standard 12-tone composition?


Sure! Unless you equate 12-tone composition with 12-tone-row composition.
I guess I meant the row thingy!

Is that what the original post was about?

Merry Christmas.

_________________
When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dewdrop_world



Joined: Aug 28, 2006
Posts: 858
Location: Guangzhou, China
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

danielrast wrote:
Milton Babbitt is getting to one of my favourite composers...


Yeah, Babbitt's one of the few serialist composers whose music has some character and humor. While the rest of the lot were perfectly, deadly serious little musical revolutionaries whose tempests were no bigger than their teapots, he was having a good ol' time.

Speaking of self-proclaimed revolutionaries, Boulez's Sur Incises (excerpt below) actually grooves in a few places (go in about 4 minutes)! I'm not a big fan of Boulez but I warmed up to this piece quite nicely.


_________________
ddw online: http://www.dewdrop-world.net
sc3 online: http://supercollider.sourceforge.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 2922
Location: Up in that tree over there.
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:40 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: polyharmonies
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Acoustic Interloper wrote:
I guess I meant the row thingy!

Is that what the original post was about?

Merry Christmas.


Yea, the rwo-thingy LOL

BTW Webern's tea pot was two parsecs wide -- I've seen it -- from the inside.

_________________
The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Acoustic Interloper



Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2071
Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89

PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:04 am    Post subject:
Subject description: polyharmonies
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Acoustic Interloper wrote:
I guess I meant the row thingy!

Is that what the original post was about?

Merry Christmas.


Yea, the rwo-thingy LOL

BTW Webern's tea pot was two parsecs wide -- I've seen it -- from the inside.

Like a Tardis is it -- small on the outside, big on the inside?

_________________
When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 2922
Location: Up in that tree over there.
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yup -- only bigger (on the inside) Smile

BTW I have a neice named Teigan.

_________________
The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Antimon



Joined: Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 4145
Location: Sweden
Audio files: 371
G2 patch files: 100

PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:11 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: polyharmonies
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

One approach I like is giving a higher statistical distribution to intervals that I perceive as consonant, and a lower (but often non-zero) distribution to dissonant intervals.


I like that approach too!

What do you guys mean mean with "row" thingy?

Merry cameraderie over the holidays!

/Stefan

_________________
Antimon's Window
@soundcloud @Flattr home - you can't explain music
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Acoustic Interloper



Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2071
Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89

PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:27 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: polyharmonies
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:

What do you guys mean mean with "row" thingy?

Merry cameraderie over the holidays!

/Stefan

Oh, just 12-tone-row composition. That's the Pennsylvania Dutch (Deutsch actually!) name for it. Shocked

NYE is coming! too much coffee

Last edited by Acoustic Interloper on Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
seraph
Editor
Editor


Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:27 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: polyharmonies
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:

What do you guys mean mean with "row" thingy?


arrow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_row Exclamation

_________________
homepage - blog - forum - youtube

Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
aldanasjuan



Joined: Jan 04, 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Guatemala

PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:37 am    Post subject: Limits off Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My recomendation is that you take all of those systems, and all of those rules and remove your fear of creating something within boundaries and create whatever you want. Make an experiment, take a "traditional" chord progression, with a traditional structure, and get some weird chords under, or in a bridge, or take your melody with the traditional chords, and out of nothing keep the melody but use the other weird chords. If you have the need to experiment just try some things, and remeber, it's not about the rules, it's about making it sound right for you, the rules are there because that will automatically sound good, but the can bend or brake.

Hope is usefull

_________________
www.myspace.com/juanpedroaldana - Support your non-local artist ;D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 2922
Location: Up in that tree over there.
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Limits off Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

aldanasjuan wrote:
the rules are there because that will automatically sound good


"In the world of mules there are no rules." Ogden Nash

So it is in music. What people call rules are assertions derived from theoretical analysis of abstractions drawn from the works of real composers. They are there because they give some general indication of what techniques composers have found useful in the past.

No end of truly terrible sounding music has been written that slavishly follows the "rules of music." And one can find no end of examples where even Bach and Beethoven "broke the rules."

Good composers do not follow the rules, they create their own--not blindly but with informed insight and intuition.

Edit:
Thpelling

_________________
The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham

Last edited by bachus on Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
MusicMan11712



Joined: Aug 08, 2009
Posts: 1082
Location: Out scouting . . .

PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just discovered this thread and remember working on 12-tone rows in music theory class. This discussion has inspired me to try to find those rows and try to use them together with some new performance/compositional strategies I have been developing.
--Steve
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Acoustic Interloper



Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2071
Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89

PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MusicMan11712 wrote:
I just discovered this thread and remember working on 12-tone rows in music theory class. This discussion has inspired me to try to find those rows and try to use them together with some new performance/compositional strategies I have been developing.
--Steve

You rascal!

I'm attacking finger / accent patterns myself. Very easy to get stuck in a rut there.

The Musimathics Vol. I book has pretty good introductory coverage of 12-tone rows. I am sure that there are plenty of others.

_________________
When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Antimon



Joined: Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 4145
Location: Sweden
Audio files: 371
G2 patch files: 100

PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Limits off Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
aldanasjuan wrote:
the rules are there because that will automatically sound good


"In the world of mules there are no rules." Ogden Nash

So it is in music. What people call rules are assertions derived from theoretical analysis of abstractions drawn from the works of real composers. They are there because they give some general indication of what techniques composers have found useful in the past.



I believe that all music is listened to in context - you compare the sounds you hear with sounds you've heard before. A composer or musician uses the current context to make new music and becomes part of a feedback loop, like a still string picking up the vibrations from adjacent strings. If his or her new music is powerful enough, or resonates with some trend, it changes the context.

Any sound that lacks all connection to context will just sound like gibberish, or noise - you can't make sense of it. At the same time it is obvious when you are just mimicking something that has already been played or composed, and you'll be regarded as equally uninteresting.

The "rules" of music are that context. Like with language, it takes some training to use it properly, but it also changes all the time, as does language (a fairly common answer from a language expert when asked if x or y is the proper way to phrase something is: "both are correct"). I'm very much into the idea of music as a kind of language without purpose.

/Stefan

_________________
Antimon's Window
@soundcloud @Flattr home - you can't explain music
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 2922
Location: Up in that tree over there.
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Limits off Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:
...The "rules" of music are that context. ...


William Hoskins believed that for "modern" music each peice should be understood to create it's own rules and so extened the context of music "in vivo", so to speak.

_________________
The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
MusicMan11712



Joined: Aug 08, 2009
Posts: 1082
Location: Out scouting . . .

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just scanned one of my HS 12-tone row thingies. As part of the music theory class, we had classmates perform the piece.

Although it was decades ago I seem to recall having my performers do this as a round. I am not sure if I orchestrated this somewhere along the lines. I do remember that it was tough for HS musicians to play--and I had absolutely no conducting skills. Also, the syncopation was challenging. I seem to recall when designing the rows I was trying to develop some chord-like overlapping.

For the fun of it, I started to plug the notes into SONAR a few days ago to try to recreate it as I think I imagined it all those years ago. I will see if I can do a piece based on this but using performance techniques I am now developing.

Anyhow, since I stumbled onto this thread, I thought I'd dig this out and share it.

--Steve

Historical footnote: the blank staff paper was reproduced by a ditto machine; hence its purple color.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 2922
Location: Up in that tree over there.
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MusicMan11712 wrote:

Historical footnote: the blank staff paper was reproduced by a ditto machine; hence its purple color.


Yea, I remember ditto machines too ... wow! you really are old Wink

Anyway 'be interesting to hear what you do with it.

_________________
The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Acoustic Interloper



Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2071
Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
MusicMan11712 wrote:

Historical footnote: the blank staff paper was reproduced by a ditto machine; hence its purple color.


Yea, I remember ditto machines too ... wow! you really are old Wink

Anyway 'be interesting to hear what you do with it.

Ah, I helped to cofound and coedit an alternative high school newspaper that outsold the official school mouthpiece by an order of magnitude and turned a profit, which we plowed back into improving our materials and overall look. This was some time before PCs. In addition to writing and editing, one of my main jobs was inking and running the ditto machine that we used to print the thing.

I was also in the official journalism / school newspaper staff that year, earning a "C" for the accomplishment of outselling the journalism class' rag. Got thrown out of the National Honor Society as well. Good times!

EDIT: Correction, I am pretty sure ours was a mimeograph machine. I know that the ink was black. I did left+right justification manually by counting letters and adding spaces before I typed the articles up.

_________________
When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: elektro80
Page 2 of 3 [56 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Discussion » Composition
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use