Newbie: Groovebox vs. Software???

chaosMK · Joined: May 02, 2005 Posts: 5 Location: Boondock, NM

Hi, I am a pretty experienced musician but really new to electronic music and dont really know where to start in terms of gear/software. I am mostly interested in developing sequences and beats to be used for live performances.

I was first introduced to electronic music composition by a friend who used a chain of sequencers/sampler/drum machine/keyboard, mainly for live performances. I thought it was pretty cool how you could easily punch in a rhythm and tweak it while its playing live.

However, these days it seems like almost everyone uses software as their primary tool for creating music. I dont know much about the software end, like if you need other devices for it to work, etc.

Can anyone share their opinions on which way to go about starting out? It seems like this stuff can get very technical and a lot of the equipment/software is pretty expensive. What are the pros and cons of sofware vs grooveboxes?

Kassen · Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:16 pm Post subject:

I think grooveboxes with their hands on controll and preset sounds are very accessible for newcomers which is a great advantage but I´d beware of getting stuck. I think many of the grooveboxes have a certain limit to what you can do with them that will limit your growth after a certain time. The advantage of software is that you can try a demo or two and see what suits you there before spending the cash and provided you already have the computer I think software is more cost effective. For example Live4 with a couple of free plugins would be a quite complete environment for a price that´s comparable to a groovebox... Hardware would be easier to sell if you would decide that electronic music isn´t for you, that could always happen.

If you do decided to go for the hardware I´d try something with build in sample facilities such as the electribe sampler. Being able to import your own samples will make the box keep it´s value to you after you get bored with the sounds that come with it.

Good luck and welcome on board!

mosc · Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:33 pm Post subject:

Hmmm. Good question.

I've seen special hardware all-in-one devices called grooveboxes that seem pretty neat, but they are targeted for a particular style of beat-oriented music. Roland and other big synthesizer makers have released these. If you are interested primarily in the style of music which they support, you might get a good buy on a used one. Much of the software that is available also is targeted towards this style of beat oriented music.

To be sure, the world of music software is vast, complex and complicated. There is a lot of free software though, so you don't have to invest a lot of money. Integrating a bunch of different free programs might be a good way to get started. Once you get your feet wet, you may find some commercial product is just your cup of tea. In many cases you can download free demo versions of commercial products that have some limitations, but they work well enough for you to get a real understanding of what they can do.

I hope other people respond to your question. There is no single correct answer. There are many electro-musicians that use only a laptop computer and they make some great music. There are others who avoid computers like the plague. I'm sorta in the middle.

glaive · Joined: Sep 14, 2003 Posts: 69 Location: Bloomington, IN

Hardware vs. software. Mac vs. PC. Vi vs. Emacs. Tastes great, less filling.

I've used all-software, all-hardware, and hybrid rigs. The choice really boils down to personal perference. Many composers I know are also IT professionals, so they prefer to work on hardware to make music, because they can get away from the computer.

I find that for performing, I get my groove on a little harder with real, tangible instruments. Software you always have to control with some kind of interface, be it the keyboard, a MIDI controller, or whatnot. Since the computer is a general purpose machine, there is a layer of conceptual abstraction in place when it comes to making music on one. However, you get a LOT of power when using the computer, sometimes too much. Want 114 kick drums at your fingertips? No problem. How about 45 virtual analog software synthesizers. We got 'em! Sometimes people spend more time figuring out what software they want to use than actually composing music. But some people don't, and work well with software.

This is not to say I'm against computer-based music, because I make it myself. But I enjoy interacting with machines that were specifically designed for live performance and improvisation, such as the Elektron Monomachine, or the Korg ESX-1 sampler. However, if I needed to take a flight somewhere to perform, I'd play a laptop set with Ableton Live. But most of the sounds would be recorded from my hardware ;)

Anyway, enough rambling from me. If you want specific equipment recommendations, I'm happy to oblige. Computer-based or not!

mosc · Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:47 pm Post subject:

Inspired by this topic, I just set up a new topic for free software on Windows. http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-6817.html

jksuperstar · Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject:

If you have any "programming" skills whatsoever, I'm really getting into both Pd and KeyKit lately. Both are freely available. KeyKit comes with a bunch of widgets, that lets you start creating music almost instantly. Both will grow in almost any direction you decide to take in the long run, Pd also able to generate audio, aside form just control/MIDI signals. However, they both have a steep learning curve, and require a bit of time to really get into them. A google of either product will get you the pages needed for access to downloads.

Maybe this is a good choice to jump into as a second step after you play around with some simpler more direct pattern sequencers. There are VST plug-ins that serve as pattern sequencers also, so include those keywords in your search.

good luck!

glaive · Joined: Sep 14, 2003 Posts: 69 Location: Bloomington, IN

This is a good point. You're not going to get anything like Max/MSP, PD, or Csound in the hardware world. The closest you're going to get is the Nord Modular or the Kyma system, which have software editors for dedicated hardware boxes.

But, man, that's just like being at work! ;)

mosc · Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:54 pm Post subject:

glaive · Joined: Sep 14, 2003 Posts: 69 Location: Bloomington, IN

Man, I wish!

But what I meant was that software music enviroments, especially code-oriented ones, are *physically* identical to what I do for a living, which is sit in front of a computer and type.

I find that when using hardware, I stand up, shake my booty a little, and do a funny head-bobbing thing. With Live or Reason or whatnot, I mouse around all the time, seated.

I played electric bass professionally for a long time, and I guess I just like getting my groove on in an upright position ;) (Musically ... ahem).

Kassen · Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject:

glaive · Joined: Sep 14, 2003 Posts: 69 Location: Bloomington, IN

For performance, yes, for programming and sound design, no. I spend a lot of time on sound design, man.

Kassen · Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:49 pm Post subject:

As do I. I don´t see how that affects things? I program a lot of Live´s stuff using controlers. It´s the same as performing, just with "record" switched on. I even have a controler set up for "undo", still no need to touch the laptop or mouse.

glaive · Joined: Sep 14, 2003 Posts: 69 Location: Bloomington, IN

The bottom line is that I already spend enough time on the computer. I like to get away from it sometimes. I like to take my Monomachine out to the couch for jamming, and it's also nice to set up at other people's studios. That said, I still have projects going in Live ;)

mosc · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:22 am Post subject:

I've thought about this a bit. The important thing is to get started. Whatever you choose will either be perfect (most probably not) or you'll see it's limitations and you will be moved to try something else, but from a position of more knowledge and experience. Once this process gets started, it will never end.

glaive · Joined: Sep 14, 2003 Posts: 69 Location: Bloomington, IN

Nope, not at the rate at which technology changes. But one thing I've found is that it's good to freeze what platform you're using sometimes in order to get some work done. It's easy to slip into continual discovery mode, where you're just learning features and menus, rather than making music. There's always a shiny new box out there, ya know?

Maybe the original poster will come back to check out the thread he started ;)

Mohoyoho · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:32 am Post subject:

I have used both hardware and software, but I must say the Yamaha RM1X is simply outstanding. It's a hardware groove box that has an ok synth engine, convincing drums sounds, and can record as a realtime sequencer or step sequencer. They can be had easily off Ebay for $300 or less.

Software wise I have used DR008 which is very similar to NI's Battery. There are numerous step sequencers in Reaktor which I use frequently.

But the RM1X really is useful and what I would recommend.

glaive · Joined: Sep 14, 2003 Posts: 69 Location: Bloomington, IN

On the Rm1x tip, for just a little more cash, you can get the RS7000, which has an expanded tone engine and 64megs of sampling RAM. It also enhances the Rm1x sequencer by adding true x0x style drum programming and other cool features.

chaosMK · Joined: May 02, 2005 Posts: 5 Location: Boondock, NM

Thanks for the tips and thoughts on the matter. The RM1X sounds pretty awesome and isnt in too high a price range for the features. I was only looking at Roland and Korg gear and didnt know Yamaha had good stuff.

I ended up getting an old MC-303 for super cheap off ebay and will see what I can do from there. I am mostly interested in working my way up to jungle and dnb type stuff (prob a little booty bass too) and maybe some trance/techno. I dont think it is the worst box for those purposes. I use computers/software all the time and learning another software might drive me crazy right about now=) Thanks for the thoughts!

MK