A Journey Well Documented

[Remedial]

First off, let me introduce myself. I've been lurking on these forums for quite awhile, amassing knowledge. But, now I'm stuck and need help.

I'm a totally self-taught musician, using mainly texts and divine intervention for most of my musical knowledge. I've pretty much got my theory down, except for the high end stuff like clusters, etc. I’ve never really transcribed any pieces but hope to one day.

But my current stumbling block is piano improvisation, specifically jazz (which I intend to apply to downtempo, R&B, etc). Currently, what I tend to do is just play random stuff until something sounds right and then just go from there. Anyone who has used this method before knows that it can be very time-consuming and frustrating. But here's some history...

My first introduction to piano playing was using Alfred's Teach Yourself to Play Piano, which was a good introduction to sheet playing (and just to get your feet wet) but in regards to improvisation, nada. I then bought Mark Harrison's Pop Piano Book which was way over the head of a novice like me (and it also made the dissection of different music genres too scientific).

Next up was The Piano Handbook by Carl Humphries, which was very exhaustive with its coverage of all things piano, even down to the types of pianos. Color pictures, short anecdotes on some of the more popular classical pianists, ring bound with a hard cover and a CD containing tracks for all of the pieces in the book!! It is definitely the kind of book that I would recommend for a child or young adolescent wanting to learn the piano (hint, hint to all the piano teachers out there). But, once again, next to nothing on improvisation.

So, after that failed to meet the demands, I then splurged on John Ferrara’s Jazz Piano and Harmony, which really isn’t much more than a book of chords with next to no text on what their significance is or how they should be used or played. I refrain to list all of the other books that I checked out from the library or borrowed (Jazz Piano Book and the Jazz Theory Book, both by Mark Levine, both intended for the already experienced pianist and, for the novice pianist, equivalent to a first week/first semester computer programmer trying to figure out code without any instruction).

So, that leads me to where I am today. I’m here contemplating between the purchase of Jimmy Amadie’s Jazz Improv: How To Play It and Teach It and the first in John Mehegan’s series of books, Tonal and Rhythmic Principles (Jazz Improvisation Series #1). I guess I could say that this is my last attempt at actually trying to find a book that could instruct on jazz improvisation outside of a school or collegiate environment. Or private instruction, which I don't have the time or money for (probably would have been better off doing that with my money, though).

Here is what I’m looking for but have yet to find in any of the books that I have:

1. Fingering suggestions for both chords and melodies. It gets very frustrating when you know what a chord is but have no real idea of how to actually play it and you KNOW that you’re forming your hands incorrectly. Sidenote: I only found one book that told me which fingers to use when trying to play a seventh chord: Play Jazz, Blues, and Rock Piano by Ear, Book One by Andy Ostwald.
2. Chord progressions and being able to visualize the next inverted chord and PLAY it without having to spend 10 minutes doing so.
3. Variations on the II-V-I progression. Many books tell you that “so and so” chord can be used as a substitution for either one of these, but don’t give suggestions on a possible progression utilizing those substitutions.
4. Finally, rules on melody. Many times I can get a nice progression going but have no idea of what notes to play over it. I guess some kind of rules to limit the possibilities would be great. Composing Music by William Russo tries to do something in this vein but doesn’t fulfill any of the other things that I’m looking for. It might be great for someone who has the theory and playing down but wants to try their hand at composition.

As you can see, I’ve spent a lot of money and, along with it, learned quite a lot of lessons in futility. At this point, I’m really trying to get some suggestions from anyone who has owned or even just perused either of these two books, since these seem to be the two that keep coming up in my recent searches. Or, even better, get recommendations of other books that fit this criteria.

My main goal is to be able to sit down at my keyboard and play something (and not even the most complex something) without all of the constraints that restrict me now: having to find a good key, trying to plot out a good progression; once getting the progression down, doing the inversions, playing that and then getting lost or discouraged when the time for the melody comes around.

If you can help or point me in the right direction, please do.

[seraph]

[Remedial]

[seraph]

[jkn]

Any jazz happening in your area? I played trumpet in jazz band all through high school - but when I went to junior college I switched to piano (I'd been playing piano since I was 5...) - reason I'm bringing it up is that the junior college jazz band had several non-students in the band... they paid for the class of course - but weren't taking any other courses. They did it because it was fun for them and they always wanted to learn to play jazz...

Otherwise - are there just some fellow musicians around that would like to jam in that sort of way? We used to a have a monthly jazz society thing happening here - I haven't been in years - but that sort of thing would be a way of networking and maybe finding a few people willing to help you out.

There also used to be some improvisation albums... all the ones I've run across were very old - on vinyl - and hilarious... but hey - it's better than reading a book and you had someone talking you through things a bit on the record. I'm sure those still exist somewhere.

Otherwise - listen listen listen listen listen! And play along with what you're listening to...

As far as fingering... play chords in a few different ways... your hand will find the fingering that makes the most sense to it... curve your fingers a bit - play with the tips of your fingers. Hopefully that's the most comfortable way anyway - you'll have a bit more control - although if it's not - don't.

I had a classical teacher do finger strengthening exericises with me - which helped quite a bit... one of them is fairly simple to explain... start on C - and place each finger a minor third up - and play the chord several times. (C D# F# A C) - start transposing that to any other key. You'll definitely feel the stretching... and your weaker fingers will start to strengthen over time. Lean into those chords... think of it somewhat like lifting weights...

I can't remember the book she had me work from -I remember some of them were a royal pain... It's been over 15 years since then so I'm a bit fuzzy. (I also hurt my wrists permanently due to practicing 5+ hours a day back then... so don't over do it! If something hurts... stop doing it...)

[piano-by-ear]

Hi. I'm the author of Play Jazz Blues Rock PIANO BY EAR—the book you mentioned that provides fingering for chords. Your search for "rules on melody" caught my attention because this is a central focus of Piano by Ear.

• Piano by Ear takes students from simple two-chord jams to rich and diverse jazz, blues, and rock improvisations.

• Each chapter is built around a new improvisation, and integrates listening, transcribing, chord and rhythm studies, and the student’s own exploration and discovery. Music theory is introduced as it becomes relevant to the music at hand.

• The accompanying CD offers examples of the featured improvisations. The tracks are beautifully recorded and aim to inspire as well as inform.

• Improvising concepts are clearly illustrated and demonstrated.

• Piano by Ear is designed for students—ages 10 through adult—with rudimentary piano and music-reading skills.

For more information please visit:
www.andyostwald.com / www.melbay.com

"I’d recommend these books to anyone, even experienced players...."
—Ernie Rideout, April 2006 Keyboard Magazine Review of Piano by Ear
www.keyboardmag.com/spotlight.asp?navcode=312

[mosc]

Remedial and Piano-By-Ear. Great to have you here.

I have a very distorted method for improvisation which I enjoy but that drives some other musicians nuts. I love playing with other musicians, but the feeling is not always reciprocal. Why? I play and as soon as I identify something I'm doing, I change it. For example, if I notice I'm in the key of C Minor, I play in a different key. If I'm in 4/4 time, I switch to some other time signature. If I'm play cords on the left hand and melody on the right hand, I do something different. It's hard to follow, but the music always comes out different. I enjoy improvising in 12 tone styles and in C major - all in the same session. The effect is that of no know style. The only thing I do consistenlty is end every session on a C major chord.

[seraph]

[mosc]

[renevanderwouden]

i am not sure if it still exists, but Lee Simms "Piano Jazz Method". My uncle worked 30 years at a musical library and the management was throwing music away (I still can't believe it), so this uncle saved it on time and gave to my mum.

While searching for some new material for the lesson (this was in 1991) I came across the book. I had to rebind it first before using it, but then the learning started.

All tone keys were explained. Also all the chord progressions. Find one of those books.

I won't sell mine

[seraph]

[Remedial]

[Remedial]

[Acoustic Interloper]

Seems like improv that's going to be any good is going to be very personal, and therefore not driven primarily by texts. Play a lot, play with other musicians as much as possible, play against recordings, listen to a lot of improvised music across a bunch of genres, go to concerts with improv and watch the quality of the interactions onstage. This last is my favorite. I love to watch and hear musicians shooting balls of energy back and forth.

In more practical terms, there are lots of level of structure at which you can try out improv, unless you are playing in a very constrained structure that only has 1 or 2 degrees of freedom, e.g., trading eights. Start out with something modest -- simple variations on melody, for example -- and do that for a while. then do something else, e.g., substitute chords. My son and I improvise together fairly often (he's leaving for college soon -- parents -> son -> ), and we often play on the basis of 'here's where we meet, and here's where we part.' On the 'meet' part of this cycle we sync up, and on the other part we play what we think the structure of the piece is. It works well, it breathes, and you don't have to get fancy, in fact fancy clutters it up. Think of its as a consonance -> dissoance -> consonance repeating cycle. The latest thing I have just started trying is improv-ing finger picked guitar or banjo patterns against polyrhythmic delay FX. Configure a parallel set of rhythmic delays, plink a string, listen to the pattern, and improvise a finger picking pattern that aligns in some cycle with the delays. I don't mess too much with harmonic or melodic variations while I am doing this; this is about rhythmic improv.

Howard's point is well made (as usual ). I think of this as breaking symmetries. I don't usually break all symmetries that I notice, but I will break some. I was playing something against a pentatonic major scale the other week, and at one point went into a chromatic runs against a pedal point. This break *three* symmetries simultaneously: pentatonic->chromatic, pedal-point-is-cyclically-consonant-dissonant-with-the-chromatic-notes, and the bigger symmetry breaker of being lulled into a sweet piece and then sucker punched. My wife started yelling at me Just play something you know, and then break some symmetries.

When I started playing banjo 36 years ago I quit playing bluegrass for a while because it seemed mechanical and I couldn't get the hang of improvising at speed. What ultimately made the difference for me was listening to lots of different music, starting out with modal jazz, and seeing how I could sneak stuff from one genre or way of playing into another. Cross fertilization. Both my kids are musicians, better than I was at their ages. I see that what leads to dead ends is too much formal practice and perfection, and what works for improv is just playing with the instrument in every possible ay short of breaking it. It's got to be play, not a chore. Improv that's too much work goes stiff and dead. If that's happening, improv over some simpler structure.

I'm gonna list 3 books on jazz that I found useful, but you're not going to get any good at improvising by working from these books. You seem to expect a lot from books. Still, I like these books, and they are about jazz. Good luck.

Jazz Theory & Practice (Lawn/Hellmer)

Metaphors for the Musician, Perspectives from a Jazz Pianist (Randy Halberstadt)

Hearin' the Changes (Coker, et. al)

[deknow]

...when i was in college, and studying jazz (which i still play poorly), i had a little side business. i used to drill holes into peoples walkmen (cassette) so that a small screwdriver could adjust the tape speed. this allowed a recording to match the pitch of a given piano, and also would allow to really slow down a fast passage....this was before soundcards were standard on pc's or mac's.

i daresay things are much eaiser now for transcribing...with a computer and any free audio editing program you can isolate a chord, a progression, or melodic line....slow it down (while still in pitch), and loop it. i don't know any good jazz improvisers that have not spent countless hours transcribing...and there is no easy way to start....you have to just do it, think things are close enough (until you get to the next bar and realize how much you screwed up the last bar). there are books of transcribed albums. several of my college "jazz crew" have written these...including the "kind of blue" and a few others of full ablums...and they will all tell you that if you want to learn this stuff, don't buy the book, do the transcriptions yourself. there is no shortcut or easy way...you just have to start, and be as critical of your work as possible.

deknow

[Acoustic Interloper]

[deknow]

hi dale,

...the idea is not to simply "mimic", as if that were the goal, buying the transcriptions would suffice (which it doesn't).

remember, in "western classical music", notation was the "recording medium" used pretty far back...unlike other more "oral traditions" (or aural), such as indian classical music, where the "recording" is really only in people's heads, and passed on directly from master to student.

not to say that notation is "perfect" for western classical music, but the two did evolve side by side, and until sound recording was available, notation along with a "student-teacher" relationship was the language used to communicate music (other than in live performance).

now, remember that jazz has only recently become something one goes to college to learn...it was dance music...street music...folk music. how does one learn such music? by listening, as western notation is wholely inadequet to convey the subtle "swing" feel, and improvised parts and solos. how an ensemble and/or soloist handles things is beyond description (sonny rollins once read a long compositional analysis of his "blue seven" written by gunther schuller...and vowed never to read another, as he was just playing music).

what chords does the piano player substitute? how does the soloist, bass player, and drummer react? what chord substitutions can the soloist use, and to what effect? what makes it "swing" so hard? what themes are repeated, transposed, altered? what note sounds like a clam, and why?

these are all questions that cannot be answered by simply listening (unless you have perfect ears, in which case transcribing should be pretty easy to do). by writing out the part(s), one can insure that they know what is actually going on...and by "mimicing", one can learn a feel, a groove, an approach...and yes, licks. most of the accomplished jazz musicians i know spent a lot of time learning licks (and practicing them in all keys)...is this simply learning cliches? perhaps while practicing...but in performance, most throw everything out and just play (much like one might "practice" writing an essay in school....intro, support, support, support, conclusion), but might "compose" an essay that doesn't fit neatly into that format.

with regards to electronic music (which started as academic due to the expense of the equipment, became "folk" music when the old equipment was available in pawn shops for cheap, and now is again a college subject), how would one notate a part when the synth patch (or sample) is integral to the music? traditionally, this is done by "classical" composers by specifieying the instrument ("play this on clarinet" means that a certain type of sound, and a player with a classical background will play the part)....in electronics, one can mess with knobs, patchcords and settings and do interesting things...but to have "chops", one has to be able to translate what is in one's head into sound. this is another kind of "transcription"....how do i synthesize a tarzan call? a fart? the sound from "lucky man"? by comparing one's results with the goal...by transcribing. yes, this is mimicry...but if you can't aproximate an actual sound, you simply don't know the "language" of synthesis.

again to jazz....remember that much of the bebop revolution has become part of our popular music vocabulary...listen to charlie parker and dizzy, and you will hear all kinds of licks that are familliar...they were not so common at the time, and the two of them spent their breaks between sets playing each others notebooks full of licks (so they arrived at a common language)....but of course the music isn't just licks, it's stories made up on the spot with these licks as the words.

in order to improvise freely in a structured environment (like jazz), one has to have the basics under their fingers...which is why i don't play jazz

i don't know if this answers your question or not, but i'm happy to reply further.

deknow

[deknow]

...let me also add that all of the texts mentioned did not exist for the "old masters of jazz" to learn from...it was by ear...what sounds good, what doesn't. the "theory" is based on what musicians do, not the other way around (although there are physical reasons why some things work and some don't). reading an illustrationless textbook on impressonistic painting is similar...you can learn something there, but to "know" it, you want to go back to the source....look at the paintings, and master the techniques. dali mastered the impressionistic technique before coming into his own, andy worhall made great sketches, etc...these more abstract techniques do not exist in a vaccuum, they are an extention of the basics.

by transcribing, you are going back to the source, and seeing the original on it's own, rather than a description and analysis made by someone else. similarly, one can read a text book that says "a flute is a sine wave"...try synthesizing a flute sound with just a sine wave and see how "fluty" it sounds (not very). look in an oscilliscope, and it will not look like a simple sine wave....yet the texts tell us it is.

deknow

deknow

[Acoustic Interloper]

Dean -- Thanks for the great reply This forum is a wonderful place to ask questions.

Remedial -- Good luck on your Journey

[Beermaster]

I teach on a jazz course here in the UK and I have to say that from what you've told us Remedial it sounds to me like you need to get back to some really basic practice on simple scales and arpeggios. There is absolutely no point in trying to jump ahead to imrpovisation and chord substitutions before you have the basic grounding and playing abilities.

you can't run before you can walk.


Its really goof that you're reading up on all of this stuff but I do feel that one or two lessons from a teacher would really help and could check out your basic playing technique for bad habits and things that you've not noticed that are wrong.

The Mark Levine books are the best in the biz for 'learning' more about jazz ( and I've seen most of whats out there ) - what you have to understand is that this is a huge reference book PACKED with info so often you may find that it will take a week to read and understand one paragraph from it whilst working it out on the piano and listening to examples. - Its never going to be a quick learning curve as its a lifetime of dedication in getting your chops and changes sorted but it is a fab thing learning ! !

The art of melody writing is one of the hardest of all musical abilities - its the pinacle of achievement - everything else is simple by comparison.

Beer

[mosc]

Beeramster.

I notice that you have been a member here a long time, but you don't post much. That's cool.

If I lived near you, I'd take your course.

[Beermaster]

Hi Mosc, Thanks for the welcome. I'll be staying in these here parts from now on. seems to be a great place to hang !

Beer

[elektro80]

The chops advice seems more than reasonable. IMO, from a musician´s point of view understanding say Thelonius Monk kinda comes naturally when you try out playing stuff his way with errors and all. Picking one of the more messy CDs from the complete Riverside box and simply playing along and learning stuff is both fun and pretty interesting.

As for getting a true feel for jazz as an approach to musical material not within the proper jazz tradition, try Jan Johansson - Jazz På Svenska.
http://www.last.fm/music/Jan+Johansson/Jazz+på+svenska

That said, I do like a lot of the european folkjazz hybrids.

[elektro80]

Beermaster

[elektro80]