Progression through unlearning..

Alexander · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:47 am Post subject: Progression through unlearning..

..not only a great record by the band Snapcase, but also something that has been on my mind the past two months.

I try to get back to creating some music the way I did when I first tried it. Just adding more and more to a certain composition, exploring every knob and using a lot of the results to experiment on further.

Nowadays I study and learn about techniques, composition methods and programming, it greatly influenced the way I construct music and the way it sounds. I am enjoying it so far, but somewhere in my stomach it also feels like it's driving me away from what I used to do in music. The 'trial and error' approach seems to get more and more organized and sructured. I get less productive the more I know and learning traditional ways of composing music, working with notation and musical theory got me in a weird situation and led to starting this topic.

The more I learn the less I do, because I feel to properly do something with the knowledge I got I need to know more. The possibilities within music theory are endless and it seems a waste to apply it when you only know half the method. I get very very frustrated looking at a keyboard and hesitating. I am unable to just start playing right now, because a lot of theory causes my mind to think about the elements of my music, I used to NOT care that much about..

So will I need to unlearn for a little bit of progress?
Or learn more to progress?
Or can the two live side by side, a way to switch all the theory off when you don't need it and apply it when necessary?

Hope any of this makes sense or looks familiar.

mosc · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:42 am Post subject:

Great topic. I started music using instinct, experimentation and a "by ear" approach similar to what you describe. Then I enrolled at a music school to get a Bachelors of Music degree. I went on to get a Masters. I noticed the same thing you did. Studying music tended to take the magic and mystery out of it. Formal knowledge tends to empower the critical judge that lives in my head. That judge can ruin the experience of listening and composing.

For what it is worth, I think this is something you can work through given some time and persistence. The more you study, the more you see that there are many different theories. You can take them or leave them as you choose, unless you are trying to master a particular style. At some point, one realizes that no matter how much one studies you'll never master everything - so to some degree you will never be closer to mastery than you are now.

For me, if I pay attention to that judge in my head I would never be able to create anything. I have not been able to get him to shut up, but I have learned to ignore him - at least some of the time. The judge is very clever and has a lot of education and experience. He is quite self-satisfied and very hard to ignore. I'm happiest when I just let him run his rap in the background while the ignorant little boy inside gets to play with his noise maker toys - that's when the music comes out.

Scott Stites · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:34 am Post subject:

blue hell · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject:

I didn't study music theory, but in general learning new theory can be pretty mind boggling - opening up more possibilities than can be dealt with. Usually it will end up to be integrated with the practical side, becoming a tool, instead of "truth" .

dewdrop_world · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject:

Don't have a lot of time right now, but let me try something in very general terms.

Think of theory like you're a jazz musician. You drill scales and arpeggios so that you'll have a lot of resources to fall back on while improvising.

If you don't do the exercises, you might have an idea in the middle of a solo that your fingers can't realize. That's not so hot.

Composing is more cerebral, but not totally dissimilar. Say you hear a multiple-line texture in your head. If at some point in your life, you practiced writing a fugue, that's a resource you can draw on. If not, not only do you have to tease the materials out of your head, but also learn the technical skills at the same time. That's hard. It's unnecessarily hard.

Theory is your servant. It can help you figure out how to do what you want to do. You should not look to it for instruction on what to do.

Theory should be HOW, not WHAT.

James

seraph · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject:

bachus · Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:13 am Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:01 am Post subject:

bachus · Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:36 am Post subject:

dewdrop_world · Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject:

I have quite a different experience of theory from mosc. Smile

For me, the analysis is one dimension of the experience that -- I find -- enriches the experience of the magic. When I listen to Bach, I get gooseflesh -- and I find myself even more completely wrapped up in the music, the more deeply I understand the "grammar."

Maybe it's that the grammar has sunk into my bones to such an extent that my whole body responds viscerally to a deceptive cadence or Neapolitan 6th -- AND it responds to the conscious knowledge that it is a V-vi or N6. Both my mind and body are fully engaged simultaneously and by now, I can't imagine listening any other way. Maybe it's rare to listen this way; if so I consider myself one of the luckiest people in the world.

No on/off switch for me. It's all on, all the time.

James

bachus · Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject:

Alexander · Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:43 am Post subject:

Great responses! I knew opening a small discussion on the topic would clarify a lot.

I thought a lot about this and comparing it to language helped a lot, the more you read and learn about a language the more structured and at the same time dynamic your writing becomes. (I guess the way you read is evolving in a way similar to how one listens but that is a very subjective thing to say)
In poetry I am always as free as a bird, because I have no training or style to fall back to, but I use the freedom in a way I should use it in music. Being more free in my approach and applying knowledge as a tool, not using it as a method.

Balancing freedom in composition with common sense, knowledge of musical repetoire (vocabulary) and techniques.
The "problem" I am/was having is that a study can force you to work on a certain technique a lot and that it can mess with the above described balance..
I sometimes compose with only thinking what technique to use to create the sounds and what way to create a melody on my keyboard. In my case these things should come in a much latter stage of composing a piece. I should start with a sound or melody and after structuring a global composition, start working on sounds and melodic structures. This way the theory comes in as a tool, not as a set of rules you need to know before you can start composing.

Conclusion of the above rant is that, well I love music, but I'll have to get used to the fact that it can leave me very confused at times. Smile

dewdrop_world · Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject:

I think that since the 19th century there has been a tendency to romanticize "untrained inspiration." But I think Thomas Edison had it right, that it's 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. The inspiration comes without training, yes, but I'm very grateful to my training for facilitating the phase of hammering the raw materials into a presentable shape.

I'm concerned about a too facile equation of untrained spontaneity with authenticity -- and it isn't that what we're really talking about? What it means to make authentic music? If I'm reading the signs right, we're saying that authentic music is the music that's closest to your heart, music that is unfettered by convention, those pesky abstract rules that keep you from saying what you want to say. Perhaps we talk this way to disguise the tremendous banality and lockstep conformity of the overwhelming majority of today's music. (If I hear one more "sincere, passionate" singer-songwriter who never uses any chord progression other than i - VI - III - VII, I swear it's going to be hard not to jump out a window. Vast swathes of the electronica landscape are just as bad.) The death of musical literacy is no small part in that.

I'm coming across like a pessimist, but I don't really feel that way. I abandoned writing scores a long time ago in favor of code and live performance -- so I am helping to change the concept of musical literacy away from the score. But I also know I've lost something in my working method.

I don't believe that authenticity = naïveté. It's that kind of thinking that got us the clown we have in the White House. What we need is sophistication to seek ways out of the numbing status quo, and appreciation of the lessons of the past, generations of composers who struggled with the same questions and whose answers can help us today.

James

seraph · Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:57 am Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:05 am Post subject:

Indeed, that is a great post! THX.

Very Happy

mosc · Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:22 am Post subject:

kkissinger · Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject:

bachus · Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject:

bachus · Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject:

Antimon · Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject:

Listening to music, for me, is sometimes like getting a glimpse of God - something clicks in my brain and it just feels like something is right and proper. This is usually triggered by a transition of sounds rather a sequence of notes. Sometimes it's my own fingers randomly playing on a guitar or synth.

When I've had this experience, say I heard it in a song on the radio, then if I find out how it actually works on an instrument and manage to replicate it, God disappears. I might be able to listen to that song again and experience the wonderfulness, but I'll have to let it lie for a couple of months before I do - until then it's just data and facts.

This is very subjective, but for me I think it's a sense of security and a higher being in control that creates that certain pleasant feeling. When I learn to replicate it, I take control, which proves that it can't be that divine.

Everytime I buy a new instrument that I can't handle, I also have the pleasant experience - I just like to listen to the sounds.

/Stefan

mosc · Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject:

jksuperstar · Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject:

Howard, like me, I think your engineering brain tries to jump in & figure things out, rather than letting your aesthetic mind just enjoy it.

To that end, I also try to make the gears stop. A few tips I've picked up: The language understanding is usually developed at the same time as vocalizing, so the two are very tightly coupled in the brain. So, shutting one down can release the other. I.E.- Try focusing on your tongue, relax it, the same way you might sit down, take a deep breath, and sigh while you relax your body. I've found by focusing on your tongue, you can go a long way to shutting up the many voices in your head. As an engineer, it's nice to have a "method" like this, especially since my condition as an engineer has always left me seeking out the underlaying workings of a sound (in the case of music, especially electronic music that has a large technology component to it).

On the other hand, I have had moments (not as often) where *knowing* what is happening to create a sound, has helped me understand the artists point of view, and more of what reasoning and feeling the artist experienced while writing the music. That is very powerful, and I don't know if I was viewing into the artist's conscious or sub/un-conscious mind, since when I make electro-music I often let things go where they may...not always planning a filter sweep or similar. So someone else may hear my music and know more about it & me than I do. Then again, I might just be getting to know myself and my subconscious through listening to music. Like trying to know the spectrum of an unknown filter, I just keep feeding it various patterns and looking at the output spectrum to build up a more complete image (of myself).

kijjaz · Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject:

really really really cool topic!
and it's just what i always discuss with friends these days.
(especially when we feel we're geting older..
and some dudes are doing more full-time job,
not playing around or doing freelance like in the past)
- - -

i've got my own method for looking at this creative process
& i guess i've got my technic for practice also.

i think of the model as the way we absorb and express/perform.
i have this simple model in mind now
(but i just made it up with no psychological theories, it's just an idea,
so please feel free to share your ideas with me about this model)
learning / performing <-> monitoring process <-> creative process

my model works like this:
when you are learning,
the learning process (hearing / seeing / reading / noticing etc.) sends data to the monitoring process
(to test if it's interesting or not / good or bad / define theory / create beliefs, rules etc..)
then sneds the (somewhat filtered) data to the creative process as input of the creative process.

for example, i go to the concert, see a drummer plays and then think
"wow.. this technic is cool" .. then send this message to the creative process to store.

in performing process (performing / live performing / composition / idea generating etc.):
there are lots of output unleashed from the creative process..
but then monitored by the monitoring process
(in reference to the past experiences.)
and then sends to the person's performance.

for example, i wanna think up some drum ideas
the creative process throw out many ideas
but the monitoring process shows one idea that was considered 'cool' by me the last time.
it can be shown to the 'thought'.. or send to body to try to apply that idea live.
- - -

okay.. so about this topic..
the 'unlearning process' that can be achieved by this model is..
to BYPASS the "monitoring process" !!
by that.. you'll automatically forget the theory you knew before
and get in touch with the creative stream.

in my opinion, it is like triggering another 'state' of mind.
mostly, when i feel like the bypass is happening, it's more like being in a kind of trance.
not very big trance or deep meditation,
but it might be a state of meditation.. maybe a state of dyana.. or zen..
it's like a little daydream, but you can feel things more clearly / deeply.
there are no messy thoughts floating around to distract you.

i guess most people around here all have that kind of experience.
(and usually i can go into that state more easily while improvising / jazz jamming / crazy jamming with friends)
(and for me, drinking alcohol makes it harder to go into that state)

so what i'm experimenting with.. is the way to go into that state easier..
or go there.. and come back as fast or as frequently as i need.
i can see that it needs 'practicing' to be able to bypass the monitoring process easier.

one easy way to practice that is to improvise.
(with anything.. playing music / score writing / cooking / walking around downtown .. etc.)
and trying not to monitor anything but listening to it closely..

for example.. while watching a concert,
i might focus on one instrument too much..
(this uses a monitoring process) so to bypass that,
i'll let the instrument go, and try to listen to the whole thing..
and kinda 'copy & paste' the whole sound happening there into my head.
sometimes a nearby audiences can do something annoying..
for example, chatting / eating / discussing about the musicians etc..
and that gets in the way too..
(for example, i get annoyed coz i think 'they are annoying'..)
so, to bypass this monitoring process,
i should think of the nearby audience as the concert also...
so while i'm listening and copy&pasting the sounds,
i also copy&paste them into the head also.

and doing more and more of that, it kinda gets me more into that kind of state of mind.
and it feels like i'll be more in touch with the concert..
closer to what's happening there..
having less and less messy thoughts.
- - -

for me, using this BYPASSing state of mind is the 'unlearning' we're talking about here.
i don't think we can't unlearn by forgetting.
but we can by bypassing our 'theories' and let the creative thinking perform more.

i wanna share with you all more about this.
there are some more experiences i've experimented in this issue.
feel free to message me or msn me.
i'll be glad to chat about this wonderful topic.
and i'll be around to check out some cools issues in this topic.