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Jack of all Trades or ONE TRICK PONY???

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dewdrop_world

Joined: Aug 28, 2006
Posts: 858
Location: Guangzhou, China
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Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:23 am Post subject:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

dewdrop_world wrote:

The current feature set is pretty stable. Mac OSX and Linux builds are full-featured, with the Windows port lagging behind.

I'm running Windows XP, and at least some aspects of the ChucK port are lagging as well. How far back is Windows lagging?

The Win2k/XP port of SC is a few months behind general development - the main guy updating the windows port is trying to finish his dissertation and hasn't done much on it lately.

You can always check out the sources from svn and build in windows to get the latest stuff. I can put you in touch with Christoph if you want to try this.

There are a couple of outstanding bugs that make it not production-ready, I'm afraid.

1. OSC message timestamps are wrong when messaging latency is used. This is important for precise timing of sonic events.

2. SystemClock and TempoClock chew up CPU when an event is in the scheduler. The system remains responsive and I don't think there is an impact on audio rendering.

These are probably not hard issues to fix but we don't have a Windows developer on board (except for the one guy who is trying to get out of grad school). These problems don't happen in Linux. (You seem like a pretty smart guy... how is your C++? Razz

)

But you could start with some object modeling in WinXP and the same SC code will work later in Mac or Linux. (Even GUI stuff... SwingOSC rocks!)

hjh
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Acoustic Interloper

Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2073
Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:54 am Post subject:

dewdrop_world wrote:

... how is your C++? Razz

Well, http://home.ptd.net/~dparson/DaleParsonPubs2006.htm is at least 50% C++, maybe a couple 100,000 lines with colleagues. But, not this year. If I get pulled under the SC rug and hit Windows limits, that might do it, but too many projects in the pipeline right now. Someone just wrote to remind me that I'm do for a meeting of her Ph.D. committee; and just this weekend my daughter, currently a senior creative writing senior, expressed some interest in doing MFA research on aspects of computer-processed, non-deterministic poetry, after I emailed her processed samples of her writing/reading and some ideas. I've got to go dig up my 80's vintage Terry Winograd augmented-transition-network text from the garage and whip together a poetry parser. I'd *love* to be on her graduate committee. We homeschooled our kids. Maybe get another chance to work with them.

Have fun.
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dewdrop_world

Joined: Aug 28, 2006
Posts: 858
Location: Guangzhou, China
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Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject:

Of course... I wouldn't expect you to drop everything to fix a couple of bugs in a program you don't even use (yet?)... James _________________ ddw online: http://www.dewdrop-world.net sc3 online: http://supercollider.sourceforge.net

Acoustic Interloper

Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2073
Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:34 am Post subject:

dewdrop_world wrote:

But you could start with some object modeling in WinXP and the same SC code will work later in Mac or Linux. (Even GUI stuff... SwingOSC rocks!)
hjh

Well, the fast Alienware Windows XP machine died Thursday night. It appears that it thinks it's hotter than it really is. Fedex says it's almost to the repair site, but who knows its ultimate fate. I need a reliable machine to keep making a living, and I see why my wife's been complaining about the old klunker I'm using for now. Process startup time is horrendous. Probably needs some memory.

Anyway, being without a reliable work machine and a reliable music machine, and needing something more portable than the Aleinware anyway, I ordered a Mac yesterday. First Apple I've bought for myself since my 1980 vintage Apple II Plus, purchased *before there were MS-OS PCs* jackson dancing

My son got an identical mac for his birthday in May, and it's been working well, so I decided to take the plunge. I can always load vmware for the work stuff if the Alienware never revives. Hope I don't have to, because it means Gates will get some more dollars from another Windows license.

The point of all this is that I spent a couple of days looking at Nord G2 engine manuals and Gibson Echoplex Plus manuals and some other dedicated processor manuals, having the old existential decision that I guess everyone on this forum has from time to time . . .

Analog vs. digital (I was a tech in a former life & even worked my way through the op amp cookbook exercises in the 70's, so this choice point is not entirely far fetched)

Assuming digital ...

Dedicated hardware a la above vs. software. Advantages to dedicated hardware including less likely to crash and die. Also when the computer dies or is outdated you have to go beg for licensed copies of software, or buy new copies. That can rapidly hit the expense of dedicated hardware. Another problem is the flaky OS, especially Windoze, although my son says he has to reboot the Mac occasionally. All reasons for a software guy not to use software approaches.

Then I started looking thru the dedicated hardware manuals and saying to myself, "Shoot, not only would this be pretty easy to code, but I can think of 10 interesting variations of some of these features that I could readily code, and I can't buy in hardware." Of course coding takes time, but once you know your software framework or language, it's not that bad. It did give me the idea of going thru dedicated hardware manuals, picking the features I like, and doing software, an analysis approach which I hadn't really considered.

This all seems to converge on a tactic of using *only* software that you don't have to pay to license, so that when the laptop bites the dust a few short years down the road, you aren't constrained to go butt kissing or re-buying software for the new machine. Of course this tactic only makes sense for people comfortable with writing a lot of code. I code like I write -- way too much!

So, I think it makes sense for me to learn to use both SC and ChucK over the coming year. They both fit that strategy. Probably will wind up learning OSC I guess.

I'm interested in the counter-arguments. I guess it's largely a matter of coding practice.
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my wild little dog frolics,
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elektro80
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:37 am Post subject:

Welcome to the world of OS X! _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!" MySpace SoundCloud Flickr

elektro80
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:38 am Post subject:

Did you get a laptop or a Mac Pro? _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!" MySpace SoundCloud Flickr

Acoustic Interloper

Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2073
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Audio files: 89

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject:

elektro80 wrote:

Did you get a laptop or a Mac Pro? Very Happy

Mac Pro, 2.2 Ghz & 2 Gb, 15" screen. I need at least that much screen size for my failing eyes, but any bigger is trouble to carry around. The Alienware is too big, and at 3 Ghz dual-threaded is plenty fast, but its power supply creates electrical noise and its fans are way too loud. My son's Mac Pro suffers from none of these problems.

Did I do good?

If this fails, I think I am going to put on boots with 6 inch rubber soles, build some giant Tesla coils & do it all with static discharges. Just saw the movie The Prestige, with David Bowie playing Tesla, and those discharges are very impressive. I used to give lab sessions using Van De Graaf generators at homeschool science labs, and even the small ones can be pretty impressive. Then I'll have something to post on Howard's lightening stories thread Smile

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When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.

elektro80
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject:

I guess you are thinking of the Macbook Pro? _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!" MySpace SoundCloud Flickr

Acoustic Interloper

Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2073
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

elektro80 wrote:

Did you get a laptop or a Mac Pro? Very Happy

Mac Pro, 2.2 Ghz & 2 Gb, 15" screen.

I guess I shoulda said 'MacBook Pro.' Mid-size laptop. I needed something I could carry around. Only trouble is, carrying that Alienware 'portable' monster around was building upper body strength. Maybe I can hang some weights on the mac.
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When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.

elektro80
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

The Alienware is too big, and at 3 Ghz dual-threaded is plenty fast, but its power supply creates electrical noise and its fans are way too loud. My son's Mac Pro suffers from none of these problems.

Your son has a Mac Pro? Very Happy

If so, have you ever looked inside? Very Happy

The inside is more impresive than how it looks on the outside.
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elektro80
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

That´s a good one! I know it well. I went for a black Macbok myself, but that is simply because I needed a new and reasonable light laptop i can bring with me all over the place. I have lotsa desktop/tower macs already and I´ll probably get even more before xmas. Laughing

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Acoustic Interloper

Joined: Jul 07, 2007
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Location: Berks County, PA
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject:

elektro80 wrote:

Your son has a Mac Pro? Very Happy

If so, have you ever looked inside? Very Happy

The inside is more impresive than how it looks on the outside.

Nope, his is a MacBook Pro as well, same exact model as mine. He's off to an audio recording/production school in Canada in a few weeks for an intensive 11 month program. We toured their studio/labs in November (http://www.oiart.org/). He's becoming a formible bass player, has a good ear and some obvious skill in arranging, mixing, etc., so I think he'll have a good year. We got to hit this stuff pretty hard in homeschool science class for the last year and a half, physics of sound, audio electronics, trig, etc. He's not really into electro music much, although I keep dangling bait in front of him. I am going to miss him.

elektro80 wrote:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

Well, my software client company will be putting up servers if they decide to productize the architecture I've been working on, so I may have to spring for a Linux tower for testing. For some reason my daughter dislikes laptops, and she is due for a machine as well. She's started looking at potential grad schools (MFA in creative writing) and I've been doing some multi-level transformations on her voice-reading some of her writings (prototyped in Live; the levels are non-deterministic poetry phrase selection at one level and syllable reaarangment to insert un-spoken words at another), so if she takes the bait, I'll have reason to buy yet another audio-intensive machine and software. I'm trying to show her that she can use the computer in some additional ways. What I'd really like is to get on her MFA or PhD committee. She's 2000 miles away from me. I am sure she'll have her own ideas, but she did take an interest in some mutated sample files of her reading that I emailed her last week. Maybe it runs in the blood.

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When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.

mosc
Site Admin

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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:28 am Post subject:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

So, I think it makes sense for me to learn to use both SC and ChucK over the coming year. They both fit that strategy. Probably will wind up learning OSC I guess.

I'm interested in the counter-arguments. I guess it's largely a matter of coding practice.

Dale, you are the perfect candidate for a Kyma system. Completely open software, very robust and reliable on either Windows or OSX, dedicated multi-DSP prossors, superb audio.
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--Howard
my music and other stuff

Acoustic Interloper

Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2073
Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:55 am Post subject:

mosc wrote:

Dale, you are the perfect candidate for a Kyma system. Completely open software, very robust and reliable on either Windows or OSX, dedicated multi-DSP prossors, superb audio.

Yep, thanks for the suggestion. I was checking out their web pages and specs over the weekend. Is there anybody within a day's drive of here in eastern PA who has one? This year's equipment budget has been putting on some weight, but as long as the kids' college costs are covered, I might be able to make a case with the Chief Domestic Financial Officer and Dulcimer Player.
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When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.

Kassen
Janitor

Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:18 am Post subject:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

Then I started looking thru the dedicated hardware manuals and saying to myself, "Shoot, not only would this be pretty easy to code, but I can think of 10 interesting variations of some of these features that I could readily code, and I can't buy in hardware." Of course coding takes time, but once you know your software framework or language, it's not that bad. It did give me the idea of going thru dedicated hardware manuals, picking the features I like, and doing software, an analysis approach which I hadn't really considered.

Yes! I do that too.

It's quite amusing how the great features of the latest editions come down to a pragraph or so of code in that way.
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mosc
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

Is there anybody within a day's drive of here in eastern PA who has one?

Ummm. me... Shocked

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--Howard
my music and other stuff

Acoustic Interloper

Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2073
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:27 pm Post subject:

mosc wrote:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

Is there anybody within a day's drive of here in eastern PA who has one?

Ummm. me... Shocked

I'm sitting here giggling, Howard. Laughing

Could be the 2 1/2 glasses of Coppola Syrah-Shiraz from dinner.

I'll definitely be up your way to swap samples, after I get a musical laptop back on the air, have a little more time to prepare, and you have a time that works. I feel blessed. angel

Take a look at http://www.johnpauljones.com/multimedia/triple_hi.ram by the way. It's John Paul Jones of Led Zepplin fame playing a 3-neck acoustic 6-string-guitar/12-string-guitar/mandolin thru a Kyma, used for delays & looping. Guess he had to beat Jimmy Page's 2-neck electric of old. He's touring Europe with Robyn Hitchcock right now; I saw the latter in Philly this spring. Jones' blog says he's been taking mandolin lessons from the guy who taught 2/3 of Nickle Creek how to play -- I think finger picking runs through this electro regimen is even better than his flat picking samples -- may be a consulting opportunitty here. Ever hopeful well done

Have a good evening.
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When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.

mosc
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject:

John Paul Jones is a big Kyma user. I have seen several of his sounds (Kyma parlance for patches). I didn't know he was famous. _________________ --Howard my music and other stuff

Acoustic Interloper

Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2073
Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject:

mosc wrote:

John Paul Jones is a big Kyma user. I have seen several of his sounds (Kyma parlance for patches). I didn't know he was famous. Shocked

Yeah, I got a Led Zepplin III story from spring of 1971 that I probably darn't post, involving a universe temporarily grinding to a halt during teh day of my first listen to that album. A lot of acoustic, folksy stuff on there. According to his bio he got hooked on American string 'roots' music (as they call it now) in 1970 during a Zepplin tour. Some things are coming full circle here. Time to cast the I Ching.

I'll tell you the story when we meet. Here's the summary:

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When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.

Acoustic Interloper

Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2073
Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:46 pm Post subject:

mosc wrote:

Dale, you are the perfect candidate for a Kyma system.

I've got two questions for both Kyma and Nord G2.

1. The patch design is graphical on the PC or Mac. Is it also possible to generate patches from PC/Mac programs in some way? Not necessarily at performance time, although I guess in terms of 'live coding' this is a useful secondary question.

Standard CS geek stuff. If I can write it, could I generate it? Just like generating circuit layouts from AWK Very Happy

2. How much loop capacity in time, I guess a function of available memory and sampling rate? Playing rounds against myself is not my main goal, but I have 1 piece in particular that has really pretty harmonic structure for rounds. Played acoustically I have three distinct verses, about 1 minute each, but I could scale each one an octave to get 6, and use alternate fingerings to get 12, if I really wanted to spin a looping web with this tune. So I'd be looking at at least several verses of a minute each. No disk on these machines. I guess I could always kick the storage issue to the laptop.

Thanks.
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blue hell
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:31 am Post subject:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

For the G2 this would be possible, not at performance time though, by using (parts of) the Python code for the NM Classic to G2 patch conversion software. It would mean of course you'd have to write your own software to do so, but it is possible.

See http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-15405.html and other threads in that section.
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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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mosc
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:22 am Post subject:

The G2 isn't a sampler, but it has the ability to record very short snippets of sound on the fly. You are limited to about a couple of seconds IIRC. The Kyma can support very long samples. It can use internal memory or record to disk on the fly. You have to have the computer hooked up (Firewire) to it when it is running. That is a minor disadvantage. As for writing code that is compiled and executed on the fly, that is possible, but I have never done it. Carla, the software developer, said that the entire software system is open, even down to the DSP level and the scheduler, but not many people have asked for it. _________________ --Howard my music and other stuff

Acoustic Interloper

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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject:

mosc wrote:

The Kyma can support very long samples.

Have you found a need for DSP extension cards with how you use it?

Do the XLR inputs offer phantom power?

Been reading Kyma pages a bit. Very interesting, and also very computer sciency, in a good way. Besides the budget question, one aesthetic question is, if I want to do 'folk music' in the 'pass it on' tradition, that would argue for SC or ChucK or other open source. In fact, I've been thinking about a possible tutorial in the old Oak Publications tradition, on bringing finger picked acoustic guitar & banjo forward with some of this stuff, that would go nicely with an accompanying CD using ChucK or SC.

On the other hand, DSPs and spectral analysis! Nothing like triggering patch changes by leaning on a pluck or starting a different drone string. No taking the fingers off the strings. That prospect is very interesting.
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When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.

mosc
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject:

The Kyma inputs are line level. No phantom power, AFAIK. Mine has 12 DSPs, enough for me but some people with 27 say they'd like more. I see what you mean by folk tradition using cheap instruments - in case of ChucK and SC, free. But the tradition is also that folk musicians play instruments that also cost many many times the price of even a fully loaded Kyma system. After all, there's nothing for folksy than money. _________________ --Howard my music and other stuff

Acoustic Interloper

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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject:

mosc wrote:

I see what you mean by folk tradition using cheap instruments - in case of ChucK and SC, free. But the tradition is also that folk musicians play instruments that also cost many many times the price of even a fully loaded Kyma system. After all, there's nothing for folksy than money.

Yeah, my May banjo purchase at Mandolin Bros. pushed into the low end Kyma budget region, and the guy who built it in 1993 (Bart Reiter) replied via email that I got a good deal. Good guitars go for way more than that.

Was talking with Jeremy's bass teacher, who moved into a nearby house last fall, during my nightly walk the other evening. After doing the finger picked delays in Live, I was thinking about doing different delays on different strings on the finger picked MIDI guitar, since the MIDI channel carries the string number. Interleave the strings in time in modulo polyrhythms. We got onto how with fast signal processing and hi Q bandbass filters on a stringed audio signal, you might not be able to ID the strings per se, but you could pull out different drones or reappearing central notes, and do wonderful non-linear things when they appear. Sort of a generalization of the idea of sympathetic strings, but without the fuss of building yet another stringed instrument. To never have to buy another banjo . . .

How many Kyma DSPs do you reckon that might take? Which DSP do they use, anyway?

Have a good evening.
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When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.

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