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tgwotr
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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 Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:15 am Post subject:
 Ableton Live - Making it loud! |
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Antimon
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:18 am Post subject:
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Hmm, I haven't had that kind of problem - I'm also using an old MacBook Pro, and the volume I get in Live is about the same I get when playing stuff elsewhere.
Just a little check - are you checking these levels on an armed track with monitoring on? You might get some kind of phasing effect between that and direct monitor on the sounds interface that way, that gives the impression of low volume... probably not the case but you never know.
/Stefan
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iPassenger
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:55 am Post subject:
Re: Ableton Live - Making it loud! |
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| tgwotr wrote: | | So, I've looked around various DAWs (e.g., Apple Logic, Garageband, Reason), and Ableton Live stole my heart. I'm currently running Ableton Live 7 Suite for all of my production and DJ setups. |
Good move it's ace. 
| tgwotr wrote: |
However, Live has a very low peak level... so, basically... when you're producing songs, as in most any other DAW, when you add effects, it gets louder and louder, thus possible peaking... and to counter it, in Live, you have to turn the master volume down.
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You shouldn't really do this. Turning the master fader down is not the way to achieve a better mix, you should lower the volume of the parts feeding the master mix and leave the master fader where it is.
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I'm on a Mac as well (first generation MacBook Pro, 15"), and, it seems most every song I've listened to sounds the same at around four of the little volume buttons that comes up when you turn the volume up or down on macs... but, when in and exporting from Live, the same volume is only achieved at around nine or ten little volume buttons.
I tried experimenting with exporting a finished track out of Live, importing it into GarageBand, and pumping up the volume... but that peaked a bit as well.
...so, has anyone had the same problem and/or know how the professionals get their track volume at a relatively high volume while keeping it clear and crisp? That'd really help me out!
- Thanks in advance! |
It seems to me that what your trying to do is increase the average level of your tracks, this will increase the perceived volume rather than the actual peak levels. What you probably need to do is learn about mixing, eq'ing the sounds around each other, cut away parts of each sound that you don't need then, you can make everything seem louder whilst not wasting valuable decibels. Then you may also need to learn how to compress/limit (and possibly maximise) your signal to squeeze yet a few more average dB out of your tracks. When you've done all that you'll probably want to master it (or get someone else to) and boost the average signal a little further. There is a lot to learn about there.
Sorry if I have got the wrong end of the stick.
EDIT: A couple more tips
1. Keep the peaks of the most important (loudest) thing in your mix around -6dB or less.
2. At a busy point in the track your master meter should be reading peaks of around -3dB.
3. If you want it to sound a bit more pro level, stick limiter/compressor on the mix, doing around 3-4dB of fast gain reduction and bring the signal back up to the same level it was before the gain reduction.
4. Turn your speakers/headphones up to compensate for keeping your mix levels lower.
5. Don't turn the master fader up or down. Leave it at 0.
6. To compare it to released music, drop a track you like in to another audio track, change the outpout routing of this track to ext out only and make it match the average level of your mix. Now your comparing them fairly.
You'll probably find that your music has far more spiky transients, which is why it ends up sounding quieter. Fixing your mix with EQ/Compression/Limiter and lastly a little mastering/maximising will help but it will take time to learn. I know I am still trying to get it right. [/b]
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tgwotr
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:57 pm Post subject:
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iPassenger
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:57 am Post subject:
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tgwotr,
I think I got the wrong end of the stick, I thought you were having troubles with the level of your own tunes not dj sets done with other peoples.
It really shouldn't be an issue, mixing other peoples stuff, as it is already mastered and should be loud form the outset. I am friends with Black Dog, who play they're own stuff live with only 3 laptops running Abe and they never have any problems sounding quiet.
Maybe u could try running a limiter on your master channel on Abe, so that you can squeeze a few more db out of your dj mixes but it really shouldn't be an issue. Perhaps your effex mix is running too loud and thus stealing your headroom.
As far as normalizing the signals of recorded material, you should be able to do it in any audio editing app like Soundforge etc.. In fact you may be able to do it in Abe.. not sure.. I never bother as I record at 24bit and always leave a few db of headroom.
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Antimon
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:45 am Post subject:
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There is a checkbox to normalize the mix when you render to disc in Live, but I have the feeling you know about that one already.
I've used Live, Cubase and Reaper, and I can't say I've had different kinds of problems between them. My mixes have usually been pretty low but that's just because I haven't realized that you can pump up stuff by EQing until recently.
/stefan
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iPassenger
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:23 am Post subject:
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| Antimon wrote: |
My mixes have usually been pretty low but that's just because I haven't realized that you can pump up stuff by EQing until recently.
/stefan |
I know how you feel.
Have always kind of steered away from vicious EQ for fear of adding too many phase complications but getting a good mix is so much easier if your prepared to cut away the crap in your tracks that you really don't need. (Lately I've managed to make snares really cut through and really snap by just reducing them to only the bit of the spectrum I need from them and then turning them up) In isolation some of those tracks viciously eq'd will sound thin/dry/brittle/bland etc but in the middle of the mix they can sound great and not waste yr headroom. Now I am trying to deal with my fear of wide panning, which can also really help create more space for all your sounds.
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ark
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:19 am Post subject:
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I am surprised that you would find that adding effects makes the levels higher; but if they do, I'm pretty sure that most of the Ableton effects incorporate level controls in them that you can use to get the levels where you want.
If you have to adjust levels to be lower than you would like in order to avoid clipping, that may signify that you have more dynamic range than you expect. This is not necessarily a bad thing. You might want to take a look at www.dynamicrange.de for a more detailed explanation of dynamic range in recorded music. I believe they also have a free, downloadable tool that will measure the dynamic range of a recording in a standard way so that you can compare it with other recordings. |
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iPassenger
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:13 am Post subject:
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Ark,
I assumed he meant when having your effects on a send/return loop.. hence they can easily increase the volume of a mix. However you are also right in Abe you can easily tweak input and output levels (on all effects i think).
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ark
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject:
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| iPassenger wrote: | Ark,
I assumed he meant when having your effects on a send/return loop... |
Hmmm... I don't know why -- In Ableton Live, effects are usually part of a device chain, either in an individual track or in one of the masters.
But either way, I would think that effects can make the signal louder or softer, and there's no obvious reason to think it would usually do one in preference to the other. |
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iPassenger
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:07 pm Post subject:
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Well as he mentioned that his dj mixes were quiet, I assume something else is adding to the problem, mixing other peoples finished (and mastered) tunes with Abe shouldn't cause this.
As he mentioned effects i assumed that this may be the culprit and obvious cause of this is when your effects are on a send/retrun loop (and are of a siginifcant level).
| Quote: |
In Ableton Live, effects are usually part of a device chain, either in an individual track or in one of the masters.
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Unless you have them on a send/return that is. In abe you do this by running your effects chain on a return channel and then the send dials to send to this (much like on a traditional desk but much more flexible really).
If he is running the effects in series on the dj channel then the issue may just be gain structure, the levels between each effect but i thought the former seemed more likely.
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tgwotr
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject:
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tgwotr
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject:
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iPassenger
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:36 am Post subject:
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| tgwotr wrote: | Also, for an example... this is a sample from my current project.
This fifteen second track only contains a sample from another track, patch from Ableton's Operator, and a kick and snare (both of which I made).
As you can probably tell, it's right on the brink of peaking/going over, basically as close or as loud as I can get it without it becoming distorted.
...just like writing or drawing or something, after you listen to something for so long, pretty much anything will sound good, so, after doing this for a couple hours, my opinion may be better left indifferent. Does the volume sound okay? I think it may be close, or a little close to being a little quiet, je ne sais pas.  |
That sounded pretty loud to me... in fact it sounded like it was clipping? That could just be your samples/operator sounds.. and I am listening at work on my iphone so not really the most hi fi.
If i was you I wouldn't worry too much about getting it to sound super loud, until you have finished the track and the arrangement. Get your mix as loud and undistorted as you can before you start adding processors to the master channel. Go with a -6dB max peak level for each track and around -3dB for the whole mix (without moving the master fader). Then to bring it up to CD level add a one or two of the following: limiter/multi band comrpessor/maximiser/compressor and aim for around 3-4dB gain reduction... Then bring the level nearly up to 0. Too much and it will sound smashed like it is on the radio or worse all distorted. It does totally depend on the sound your going for though mind.
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EdisonRex
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject:
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iPassenger has it. Don't strive for a radio sound. That's not live. It's radio, and is compressed to get the best sound over a low bandwidth medium.
It is better to get balance throughout the program than to get loudness for loudness sake. The output meters should never peak. If your program isn't continuous, you won't get continuous output.
The wall of sound is overrated, imo.
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tgwotr
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject:
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iPassenger
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:16 am Post subject:
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| tgwotr wrote: | Thanks again everyone for all the responses. I think I've figured my problem, which, is probably my inexperience in actual production mixing, all the sound levels and such.
...although, you may have gathered from the clip I posted, and, maybe if you've some experience in Ableton as well... compared to other DAWs, such as Logic for example, Ableton doesn't sound as 'crisp' and clear. Any ideas on why that is and how to fix it? ...not really sure if filtering the master to death is the answer or not. |
If your mixing mp3s/wavs of other peoples tracks it is usually best to keep the warp mode on repitch, this prevents degradation caused by the warping engine.
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tgwotr
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:48 am Post subject:
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tgwotr
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:38 pm Post subject:
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BobTheDog
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tgwotr
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:17 am Post subject:
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BobTheDog
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:42 am Post subject:
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Well to make something sound loud what tends to be done is to compress the hell out of it but then you are going to loose dynamics.
Have a search for maximizers on google.
There are a few fee ones around, this Waves L1 limiter clone might start you off: http://www.yohng.com/w1limit.html
Cheers
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BobTheDog
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:45 am Post subject:
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| Also worth remember is that most music you hear nowadays is compressed to hell so to get louder than that is impossible! |
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Antimon
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:59 am Post subject:
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| tgwotr wrote: | | I'd really like to just make my music at a low volume, not worry about the levels even if it's an important part of composition, and just be able to correc the volume without worry of peaking in an external program. |
I think you can do that in just about any sound editor. In Audacity you select everywthing the go to Effects/Amplify (or something like it). It has a checkbox for clipping prevention, and I think it sets the default value so that it will amplify as high as possible without clipping.
It may be a good idea to have a look at the audio in a sound editor - sometimes you get stuff that doesn't sound a lot but makes big waves in the audio data, like a low bass rumble (you can get that from wind on a microphone for example) or some dc offset.
/Stefan
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